How can we decide if we are worthy if you don't give us something agaisnt which we can measure our worth?

If worthy means we have to be good to others, then I'm worthy.

If worthy means I have to love Jesus, then I'm not worthy.

Just depends on what your measure is.

PURGATIVE in order to acheive the divine,
In hell you cant catch anything close to divinity.
Hopeless design i say,
but you are speaking of Dantes Purgatory where the soul even without hope can raise itself through cycles of pain and penance.
Guess what hell anit no choice
Hell aint no penalty time out
aint no room to breath for breath without
and only just being the the suffering
is always to far away
to much
To be or not to to be! is never consideration where hell lies with in the me.

Hell has nothing
Earth has nearly everything

Purgatory. . . ; why do such illiterate concepts cease to be let go of? Why, is it not more simply due to the way we had come to be built through the several hundred of thousands of developing years, through the several branches of species, brain-wise, to have need of in-group preservation by the lure, or pressure, of a 'higher power' to do so?

'Tis not the imaginative domain of our more creative minds that will determine if we are really worthy to be alive as an individual, no, because it is by the brute fact that each of us presently alive, by being alive, has proven worthy of living. It is the social construct which then adds further meaning to worthiness (as Aedes has pointed out) that tempts to amend, or parse that brute fact of nature.

Our presence here on this orb in space, is so, because, most evidently, of the flow, as it were (so to speak) of nature. There is no ultimate, universal test, except for that of time. Our presence here on this orb in space, as this presently more fully developed Homo, has not been the case for most of the history of this orb, and will not always be the case; as the sun will put an end to most life forms in its days of expansion. Our presence is simply, and most evidently, here, and now, and only.

That is the beauty of each and every single living thing. That is what gives such great importance and value to each and every living individual. That, is what makes one and all worthy, without exception, from the eyes of nature. Our necessary for social in-group bonding as a human 'kind' structures of morality, should be more open to that of brute nature, and, within not only the framework/background of this planet, but of the cosmos as well.

Thanks Paul. What would you like those measures to be? You mention Jesus? Exactly, if you don't mind, what is it about what is said about Jesus is it you don't particularly like? Do you think that a god, and there has always been one in the mind of man, would be able to speak through man?

Okay, let me offer you "something" to measure. How much one gives!
Now let me offer what that means. To give of yourself in it's purest sense; without the anticipation of receiving anything in return!

William

---------- Post added 01-02-2010 at 08:02 AM ----------

Hello SometimeSun, and thank you for your response. As for as the words you use, please effort to try and speak using words that will be the simplest and the most acceptable and understood my most. I have edited what you have said as to what I think it is you are saying, if you don't mind. If I am wrong, please clarify. Thanks



What? What is being purged? That which is NOT? Will that do it? Leaving nothing but the divine?



Catch anything? Who's pitching? Purgatory is not hell? Hell is the next step! It could be there are some who have already taken that step?



You mean...............planned when you use the word....."design"?



I didn't say. Let's just say it is a "stopping off place" on the way for one to decide what direction they choose to go, without knowing what heaven is or could be.



Again Sun, the thread is about purgatory, not hell; but as you regard hell, are you so sure? What about the phrase "...better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven"? Odd, don't you think, considering no one knows what heaven will offer? Are the streets really paved with "gold"? Hmmm?



That.........would be scary, huh? Do you think a God could be that unmerciful? I think not.



If that is what you are saying, with out a sense of it, then there is no being and hell would not exist! Isn't that right? So what is it exactly?
Without a sense, there is no suffering. Only those who are senseless, inert, and numb could exist there. Hmmm? You know, that could be what selfishness is all about, huh? Little regard for what you give, only what you get in return? IF, that is the case, then there are some in which purgatory was their last stop and are indeed in hell. But if that is the case, ask anyone, they would not admit they are there. They like it too much! That would pose problem now, wouldn't it.



Now come on Sun, think about it! What is nothing? Nothing doesn't exist. You mean there is no good for "something"? Is that what nothing is? Some have said in regards to others that they were addressing to be "...good for nothing so and so's"; huh? Perhaps those who would say such a thing are those who are already in hell, huh?



Many would argue and most of those have, what others assume, all that it, the Earth, has to offer. Could there be more..............to it............than that? Here, Sun, we have a major conundrum/catch 22/paradox/impossible situation. Those who have less and wanting more; and those who have more who care less for their only concern is keeping what they have. Hmmm? Purgatory; simple as that. A stopping off place for us to think about what truly is important. Are you a giver who takes or you a taker who gives. If all were giving, there would be no problem...................................................would there!

William

---------- Post added 01-02-2010 at 08:17 AM ----------



Sorry Kj, but that sentence doesn't make any sense from one who otherwise is so eloquent in his use of the English language. Do you mean "Why can't those who are so unknowing still cling to such notions of a word such as purgatory? Isn't that what you meant to say?

If that IS what you are saying, then you must realize...........they are not you! How's that for an answer?



Wow! You know ALL that? Please forgive me if you do. I......do beg your pardon, if that is the case. Have mercy on me, please. I truly didn't mean to insult your intelligence.



You say "brute" and "proven" worthy; what is so brutish and why does one have to prove their worth? If one is so of that notion, does it not mean others must be of lessor worth and only those who prove it qualify? If that is he case.....................to who?



You say "flow". Good. Let's examine flow. To move or run smoothly with unbroken continuity, as in the manner characteristic of a continuum then I agree. Then what is deluge? What does overflow mean? Too much, too soon, too fast? Hmmm? "A cup running over?"



Ah, odd that you mention time. How much of it do you have? I think you have hit on something here, my friend. Do you have the time to do all that you desire to do? Many of your posts you offer that you are in a rush. I can find them is you want me too! You don't have the time to stay, you have more important matters to attend to. By your own admission, time is very important to you as it is with most as it seems we just don't have enough of it.

Could that be the problem, Kj? Fearing we don't have enough time before death overtakes us? Is that what we think "living" is all about. When we rush, we create friction and friction causes heat and heat causes decay, and decay causes rot and rot makes for good fertilizer that will provide new growth for when you are green you grow and when you ripe, you rot. When we go to fast we miss much as to what life has to offer. Like the flow of a raging river sucking all the nutrients of it's banks and washing them away lost in the oceans of our discontent.

To say there is no universal test huh? I think you a bit reaching to think you could even say that; to say nothing of vain. To know all the universe has to offer considering how so very small this "orb" is if we can even define what "small" is or for that matter what "large" is, is over stepping boundaries a bit; like a river over coming it's banks.



Ah, so there we have it; in a nutshell, you might say. When do you think this will happen kj? What does your crystal ball offer to you? Homo, huh? Better be careful how you use that word! I know you mean homo-sapiens. I think we are just human who are having a difficulty in understanding what being is; thus what a "human being" really is!



Only? Wow, again! You seem so sure! Some think Christ is the only way out. You will have to admit he did offer some pretty good suggestions. I will agree, the "NOW" is so very important and that is all there is, and have discussed that many, many times. Should we totally dismiss what is to come? Well, yes and no. Talk about a paradoxical and oxy-moronic statement, ha! Sorry. We should disregard it if we effort to predict it. For then we create a self fulfilling prophecy! We will create what we think it will be. If we imagine it good, it will be good. If we think it bad, it will be bad. Kj we have no idea of what the future will be, my friend and what is bad about that is some view life as "terminal" and there is absolutely no evidence of that only what we think death is.

If you think that is what death is, then you sir are one of life's problems. It matters not what death is, only that it is a part of our life and it "will" happen. The more we consider it as the end; we rush past what life is in our greed to understand all that life offers before we do..........end.

Let's say it is and we, the "I" is no more and we become a nothing and void. Now I am saying this in regards to you in particular because I have long past gone beyond such a thought, but if this is how you think, you, by not living your life and efforting to rush to continue what life you think you have you take away what you truly could offer for those you leave behind. That is the epitome of selfishness sir. Those who are obsessed with quantity of life are so preoccupied in efforting to extend it, they deprive others of what life they could have and in doing so lose all meaning of what life is or could be by attending to those they are responsible for bringing into this world. Your prodigies; your posterity. What good is your life if you take away the life of others?



Sorry Kj. If you are saying everything "could" be that, even then you would be wrong as it relates to the reality we are experiencing. So don't do there. We say beauty and we apply that word to many things and we have no notion of what true beauty really means! What is beautiful about a mother taking the life of her unborn child, huh? God damn it! Excuse that, Kj! Call that beautiful, if you have such nerve? See list and call all on that list beautiful, sport.

No, I didn't think you would. It is so much easier to ignore it and sit back and call life beautiful. It could be, but as it stands now; not by a long shot. That list is today, not some 2000 years ago when it was said that we "know not what we do" and could be excused!

"Ah, but William, we needed to do research on the brain of that perfect unborn being so we can solve our problems so we can live longer. I sure as hell hope this is NOT what you mean if it is. I AM DEAF TO SUCH EXCUSES and BULLSHIT".

Sorry Kj please don't take it personal, many think as you and they too have no idea of what beauty is as they use it with bated breath and think they know what is beautiful.

Let me tell you a little secret. I know what hell is. I've been there. I've seen that bastard you know as satan; literally up close, eye ball to eye ball. Of course I had to go insane to make his acquaintance. I know now I was born to make that trip to hell and back again. No one else has ever survived such a journey. No one. The fact that I made it back means you can too. I promise you, you don't want to go there, believe me.



Sorry Kj, but in all due respect, you have no idea of what you are talking about. "More open to brute nature, indeed"? You may consider yourself as "animal"; I, on the other hand, know different. Good luck.

William

I do appreciate your taking the time to touch on all that...and at that, rather artistically...nice !! As for the content, there is much which stands a great deal of looking into more, I'd say. Here, is where we may start:

You have firstly mentioned the idea of 'purgatory.' Please do tell me where in the world you have gotten that idea from?

Thanks ! KJ

Sorry (but not really that much), William i should not write when drunk, not an excuse, but a reason. To off the cuff.
This does not mean what i said is to be dismissed, it means i have now to try harder to find and remember my reason.


That which is being purged is all that is not divine or knowledge, that is superfluous and unnecessary if your goal or reason be truly divine, truly good.
Your human is what is being purged, your soul may never be dirty at all? it is the rest of you that needs the scrub. Your existence not necessarly your eternity.


I like that, thank you.
Do we need to catch in order to receive, do we already have it?
You are right correct, purgatory is not hell, you did not say this.
I hope therefore I am not in hell, yet! (meaning it could still be to come)



No I meant that hell was formed once, hell was designed, was built from some stuff to have no design? Your guess as good as mine.



No, not just 'stopping off place', it is also dropping off place.
Which is where choice in/of purgatory is, because it is a where that has hope? I was confusing hell as purgatory here.
It was however a treatise upon that we still dont, not would if the choice or hope be known, choose a purgatory over purged. we need to be clean.
To know you have sinned before you are punished for it, is this purpgatory?


It is that to guess means you dont know where you are, you still dont know you have a chance in hell of getting out away from it.
"better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven" I dont get this either, it confuses me, it tells that heaven is mastered, heaven is 'to let', heaven is rented then?
instead of what heaven is. HOME, is yours where else, all else if it is heaven is and should be welcome.
Heaven is as much yours as it is everything elses, is as much Gods as it is yours, it is your and our HOME.

And are all the stars really for sale?
Well me William, well met.


You dont even need to ask God,
you first must ask yourself, 'am I worth mercy?' 'Can i earn my mercy'?(very few people really believe the lies they tell themselves (at least i hope this is true, all i know is i dont believe my lies, and know i am sorry for the ones i must tell myself and others). Is pretending a lie or just a form of lie?)



You are dead, which few have control/choice over, to breath or not to breath in a place with no air or life to give a lungfull.
hell you are empty but for the sin and even this does not fill you to any form of satisfaction, it forever takes away and strips you bare (our soul may not even be with us in hell, just the human, just the man, just the sin and just the damnation wrack).
But I could and am saying also what you have described for me.
It is what you heard me say, not as much as what i said? that is not for me to conclude.
Without sense, without life, without breath, without hope, suffocated.
Maybe hell does not exist? fear but for the fear of itself.
But another thing that might not exist after death is responsibility, choice may not exist, free-will may even have some hard time explaining realisiing itself as necessary after death?, in which case we must come to terms with out sins before we die, else they/we may not be forgivable when we are dead?
and have either achieved heaven,
or been forgotten to a nothing, left as dead, without even a hell that needs to carry dead weight.
Hell could be/mean 'to be forgotten' 'lost souls no longer matter'.

Who would choose hell?
Who would choose nothing over everything?

You cannot be numb to hell-fire
just as hell-fire is fed by something, your suffering probably?

Purgatory can only happen if you know you need punishing.

How could anyone/thing enjoy or like a realisation that they need to be burned, purged, cleansed, tortured (everything with a soul fears something, and this is usually being without a soul to care)how could you bare the thought of this even if by way of finaly coming to terms with the fact one has sinned and the fact one is eternal.
(This may make the sin the eternal, but i doubt that for i am of the mind that divinity breeds forgivness and all the right stuff we were built to do, sins in the end dont matter a jot, dont have any real existence, the pointless is first forgot)
If they enjoy, have joy, for pain, they dont know and feel it, it is unatural for a soul to feel pain (for no reason, for hell-fires sake), they dont know they have a soul and in which case I would say they probably dont have it anymore, if they ever had a soul in the first place? (And that was really hard to admit, that beings capable of pain and joy may not have a soul, but as i said maybe the soul part has been removed and you are what some would coin as eternaly dead, the living dead, they have no soul)

WE DO NOT DIE TO BE DEAD.


Hell owns nothing,
hell positions nothing,
hell encourages nothing,
for it has won and rubbed you off the face of eternity. ?

Heaven gives pain a point, (heaven may even give hell its point?)
hell takes it away, gives it away to nothing, and gives nothing back to heaven for its sake
and we all know nothing keeps nothing, let alone nothing keeping anything. Ha!

What nothing is that it is inactioned, it neither has action or produces action in something/anything else. I refer again, what is hell is total erasure.
Total denial of your action and existence and contribution.
Nothing means worthless, absolutley worthless. Forever worthless.
(you cant get a forever from a nothing)

Good comes into it.
Good is a strange thing in itself to pin down me thinks.
Good would/could simply be that which has not nor ever should could ever be forgotten. Good may just be simple memory of you existence. Does this lead that good only remembers the good part of you and the bad shall be forgot?
I dont know, because it may not be the whole tutorial lesson of what led to being an advocate and example of all that is good and divine and real. (for good to be shown by example of what it is not)
Something changed (had action upon to make better bigger brighter) it changed the world, my world, your world, every world there ever was or will be, for the good.

I hope that even slightly imagining that hell is for 'good for nothings' good for nothing person', good for nothing personal, not good for a person, does not mean I am in hell 'already there'?
I hope not. I know not. I am not in hell.

I have hope, hell cannot contain such a thing.
So I am not in hell, i am an eternal on earth, at least until led to believe otherwise elsewhere:)



Earth has nearly everything, even houses a 'major conundrum/catch22/paradox impossible situation!'.

The earth even holds impossibilities.

Nearly everything unfortunately (or fortunate?) is not selective to just the everything good has to offer.
I could easily see the earth as a purgatory,
it just is NOT just all that,
it is nearly everything else.
All that good out there waiting to be a nearly anything/everything.

But to confirm, to say the earth is part purgatory does not say that purgatory is what it should be judged measured as/by singularly solitarily.

Earth is home, is heaven for some.

Does it matter? It's out there. So is heaven, Valhalla, Utopia, Nirvana,
bliss, ecstasy, hell, torment, anguish, depression..................! It's in our world,..............................let's make it go away. Who is doing the judging here? Who created purgatory?

For everything we think, there is a reason for why we think it. Those who judge others can only do so from an elevated stature they perceive of themselves. Now where does that come from? From others?

Do slaves thank their masters? There are so many starving for attention, recognition, they have no notion of their worth and seek it through others for they have never had the freedom to "think for themselves".

In the beginning of our being, it can be conceived there was no to reason to think anything. Here's the kicker Kj and what you have spent, or so it seems, your entire life on, is determining exactly were we came from and from your posts it is quite evident you are very aware of what can be known as to our physical make up.

All that we/you do must be justified in your/our mind to give us validity for being. It is a requisite; we must do that, or we have no worth for doing what we do. Are others no different? Yet you accuse them of being ignorant because of some word they are using without a thought as to why it exist to offer reason to it.

There is no doubt you have received acclaim for all that you have done; straight A's in school for you ability to learn and apply that learning that gives you the opportunity to assume all that you have learned to be just and true. The very fact that you accuse others for not being as learned as you, tells otherwise. Are they of less worth?

Many think if they can connect the dots physically, it will solve all the problems mentally. It is admirable if one has but the best motives to do what they do. Best is what it can offers to others to give them meaning. We like to think that it does.

Knowledge Kj, carries with it enormous responsibilities. What is responsibility? Your ability to respond, simple! Are you responding to the needs of others or are you responding to the acclaim of others who are so starving to have such recognition?

Kj, one who is gifted that has the ability to learn, does not mean all they learn is "right"! If it is wrong, the acclaim only is what motivates them to continue on that path. There is no need to even consider that what we have learned "could" be wrong and those who question it are considered less, what do they know; only one who judges can offer such a statement!

You cannot conceive of a purgatory or a state of being judged for you consider yourself a judge or you would not have used such a word as ignorant and you would be using your gift to learn why those you deem as ignorant to be so ignorant!

Like you are now doing with me in asking the question you are asking. "Ah, William, that's just religious "mumbo jumbo". You have no proof".

If you can destroy the word, you can destroy any effort to understand what it means as you totally ignore all of what I did offer. You are better than that Kj.

There is a reason why the word exists or it would have never been thought of, would it! Just like heaven, hell and the others I mentioned. Those who totally disregard them do so for themselves and maintaining the acclaim they have established and become blind to the what is actually going on in he world and deem it a "beautiful place".

Who now is ignorant, Kj? You are I? You deem me less for I do not have the knowledge that you "possess". That my friend is WRONG!!!

So it can be understood that you have a lot to learn yet.

Think about it.

William

---------- Post added 01-03-2010 at 08:34 AM ----------



A bit of the spirits, ay! Ha! The old truth potion. I know; been there, done that. I hope you don't think I was dismissing you?



Not! If it is not for all, it is for none. :detective:

William

Well, William, it does matter; in fact it makes a very big difference when working towards an understanding of what the concept inherent in the word can really mean. So, I'd like to you answer more personally, directly related to you, William; where did you get that idea from, please?

Kj, the operative word in my offering was "could". The fact that the word exists means that is has definitions. It is quite obvious we are not in heaven (see list) and it is not known what hell is though it can be observed in the torment some are mentally going through, so by deduction purgatory is the only other choice.

Does this answer your question?
Willam

There are many importances to many different things of importance.

Thanks for your response, William. It doesn't really answer the question, though. I understand that you did use the conditional, 'could,' but I am simply asking where the word 'purgatory' got picked up at for you. Of course, you know, I know that we can pick up a dictionary and we'll find a definition of that word; did your usage come from that Roman Catholic Church usage (even if you are applying it in a different sense)?

I do not see why we cannot see ourselves as being in heaven; on a sphere of material in space (heaven)? And since we can apply the word 'hell' in a number of senses synonymous with 'having a really difficult, trying time, or experience' (War is hell, the boss gave him hell) I don't see why we need to limit that word's use to some illiterate concept (and, by the way, this [and the previous usage] is not directed towards you, since it appears you had misread that, rather, it is directed towards those who pushed the imagined concept through their state of being illiterate...as was the world way back then, regarding much in nature.

Is there any reason why we cannot simply settle for the better, 'we are on the planet earth?'

Yes, that is true, sometime sun.

we may be on the planet earth, but that is a place in space/time. sometimes i am in hell and sometimes i am in heaven but that is a state of mind. at least that is all i know of it so far...

Yes, that is very informative in a number of ways, meree baheen, salima chan.

For one, being on the planet earth, is a space/time matter...as best we can tell, and especially for all practical purposes. Thus, we can also see that by saying, simply that we are on the planet earth, without using any further, emotionally religious belief-system based colored wording.

Then, in that the words 'heaven,' and 'hell' have been, and are, used in senses which describe emotional states of being, circumstances in one's life, and such, there is no need to introduce the word 'purgatory;' since, when using the words in these senses, we are using them synonymously with non-religious belief-system words which would otherwise work just fine...without any meaning being lost, and with only a little lessening of emotional expression.

It would follow, then, that to attempt to apply a word such as 'purgatory' towards the general condition of there being life on earth (side stepping the error of putting the H. sapiens in some special class above, beyond, and exclusively distinct from all other species), and doing so by contrasting the words 'heaven,' and 'hell' with that (see post number ten) causes it to lose all meaning value--due to the absolute, and general over application. In other words, to think, and word it as such, that all life throughout all time on the history of this planet has been, and is, in the state of purgatory, causes that word purgatory to have no sense other than, simply, being under the condition of having life.

Thus, salima chan, your post is informative in that it demonstrates the general, non-religious belief-system application of the words heaven (. . . it's hard to believe I'm in heaven, as the Bryan Adams song goes) and hell (. . . raise a little hell as another song [I think his] goes) have come to have senses beyond those original religious belief-system dogmas, and that these words are then, when removed from the religious belief-system dogma, are nothing more than carriers of emotional expression.

Purgatory, as far as I know, is very, very (if ever) used beyond non-religious belief-system dogma, as a carrier of emotional expression. Therefore, the initial attempt to question a conceptualized version of the purpose of life (although I know that William is most likely ignoring non-H. sapiens life forms) is most logically not applying the word purgatory in any 'carrier of emotional expression' sense. For that reason, unless we conclude there is a contradiction of terms, he is using the words 'heaven,' and 'hell,' in their religious belief-system based meanings, and not in the senses which you have pointed out, and which is much more common in colloquial English.

If we were to adjust the application of the word 'purgatory' used in the questioning, so as to equal the carrier of emotion, non-religious belief-system dogma usage of heaven, and hell as you have used them, salima, we will then surely see that by the question, "In the grand scheme of things could purgatory be what our presence here is all about on this orb in space we call the Earth," hardly makes any sense (we hardly ever, if ever, use it in any carrier of emotion sense).

By the above, however, it is more obvious (not absolute, of course) that William had been using the words 'purgatory,' 'heaven,' and 'hell' in their more strict, religious belief-system based meanings, and had been making application of the concepts as though they were real and actual facts of nature. To use them in such a manner, one is open to the demand to firstly demonstrate the validity and substantial evidence for such concepts being real and factual elements of nature, as the religious belief-systems describe/define them.

It doesn't matter. But worthiness is always a relative measure. There is no thermometer of worthiness. So if you line people up and rank them, you'll need criteria to choose one over another.

Nothing in particular, except for the fact that I come from a religion that does not recognize the divinity of Jesus, so I would be considered unworthy from a Christian perspective.

Sure, I've got no objection to that concept -- but if someone claims to be (or is held to be) a vehicle for god's message why should you believe him? How can you tell it's god if the voice only comes through man? How do you distinguish the one person whom god speaks through from the million crazy people who claim so?

I wholeheartedly agree. This is what makes people worthy. But it's a human judgment. We judge one another that way and I think it's appropriate for us to reflect on ourselves by that criterion.

That said, it's still only human. A martian looking at us from a telescope on the surface of his planet would not be able to tell worthy from not worthy. This is forever stuck within the walls of our collective human morality.

Yes, and I might add, that what has been term (and what this basically comes from) 'reciprocal altruism,' can be seen in primate social structure as well. (it's kind a basic thing, if you don't give [share with], you probably won't get [be shared in with] when things are tight.)

there was a science fiction concept that the earth was the penal colony of the universe-another idea was that it is actually a cosmic insane asylum...so i guess it would be easy enough to conclude that it may be purgatory in the biblical sense-that hell would be much worse and inescapable, heaven would be completely free of pain, as well as final, and being on earth is a chance for repentance and earning enough gold stars to go on to a better place when the time limit is reached.

actually whether we believe that or not, the end result would be the same as far as behavior and attitude for someone who wants not to harm anyone or anything. so i dont see any harmful effects of the idea...kind of makes everybody equals to, dont it? all in the same boat...

Yet it might be best to keep in mind, that we would be wiser to refrain from making conclusions from science fiction, about the real world, though I do appreciate your concern for balancing here. Then, as argued in my #14 above, if we will have to demonstrate the reality of such a thing as heaven, or as hell, in the religious belief-system dogma, if we wish to use that in a realistic manner. (For one to refuse to test those simply out of belief, is one thing, but then to use only a belief in an effort to leverage for a conclusion against tested results [and additionally, without being able to overturn such results] is simply wrong.)

Actually, 'purgatory' is not a biblical matter. It was dreamed up by the RCC some long while after second century closing of the NT canon. And I still say, there is no good enough reason to argue for such usage anyway...in describing the real world out there. We, along with all earth life forms, are living on planet earth; a plain, simply worded fact which is enough, and, leaves us all no less equal as humans, and at the same time, most realistically, not so far above all 'non-' and 'pre-' human life forms.