I couldn't decide where to actually place this thread. I didn't want it specifically placed in christianity since I want the question to be broader even encompassing any concept of god or gods. So I placed it here.

Anyways on to the actual question that is the topic.

First of all some might just scoff at the question or completely ignore it. I think those that do are either afraid of the question or they don't actually understand what I am asking.

What I am really asking with this question is, what would god be doing if god had not created the universe? It seems that god has no purpose of existence aside from lording over humans. Or does god have a god that gives god purpose?

I really don't believe any of this stuff, but I think the question itself is something most whom believe neglect to ask let alone answer. It might be played off as god not needing or requiring a purpose but that in itself is a perfect answer as far as I am concerned. Because if a god can lack a purpose, then why can't I?

If God exists, He must necessarily exist, as a God who came into existence, is a contingent being and is less perfect than a necessary being. So either God does not exist or He necessarily exists. If the former, then there is no purpose for God, and if the latter, His purpose is to just to necessarily exist.


In popular culture, also, a God who has no followers/worshippers is not a God, so his purpose is to have followers/worshippers.

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I wish I could quote Søren Kierkegaard every day. -Victor Eremita

I am familiar with this argument. Not that I am objecting to it but I can't help but make a parallel with myspace or facebook or even youtube accounts. God just wants subscribers, and that is incredibly funny to me.

Does God have to have a purpose? If we assume God does not exist, does the universe have to have a purpose?

Perhaps God is not a personal, knowable God, but something way beyong humanitys grasp.

Just because religions exist, it does not mean God requires us to worship him etc. Religions are generally for the benefit of man, rather than for God.

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Currently on ignore: Xris

the universe according to me doesnt in the least require nor need a purpose.

If it is unknowable then any and all qualities apply equally, even those for which you might object such as god is evil. If you object to such a claim then all claims are equally objectionable.

But wait a second. If god creates humanity then sets forth a system to benefit humanity, then what is the point of NOT making it benefited from the beginning?

This circular reasoning is why I object to the concept of free will. If you are given the ability to chose what ever yet you are told a particular behavior to follow then by all means you are not under free will. You are under chose right or else. That isn't a choice.

i agree that god does not need a purpose and neither do we.

can it be that there must be intent, or god and the universe would cease to exist? people dont need meaning and purpose (i ought to know, i have been without it for decades) as long as we wake up in the morning and have the intent to do something. it may be as unimportant as going to the post office.

but suppose a person woke up and had no intention of doing anything and no thoughts came to mind (because i think they wouldnt after some time of having no intention to do anything). suppose he didnt even intend to get out of bed or go to the bathroom or eat breakfast...i dont think he would last very long.

so i am sure a god would have some intent to do something, and therefore be doing something outside of playing with us as though we were a game of chess for eons. a being that great would have to need something more than this world to keep him occupied. but the idea is that whatever it is we cant hope to imagine or guess or learn. we have a lot of smaller, less complicated questions than that which we havent yet begun to answer!

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"The idea is to die young as late as possible."....Ashley Montagu

What if all needs are met? If you didn't need to eat there would be no need to eat. If you didn't need exercise there would be no need to get out of bed. If you didn't require sleep then there wouldn't be any need to be in bed. Imagine all need are met, fulfilled, and you are utterly without requirements. What then? Or should we be brave enough to ask the question, is gods only requirement to be loved?

Such a lonely existence, existing by one's self all alone in a vast emptiness with out anything. I wouldn't want such an existence. There would be no surprise, there wouldn't be any beauty in the mystery.

Why must God always be the power hungry authoritarian? This concept of God appears (at least in my opinion) to stem from man's projection of his own will-to-power upon God. It seems to me that if God's purpose was truly to lord over humans, then we would all believe in God and that would be the end of it. Believe or be smited - that's pretty much how it would work. I mean, God's omnipotent, if God wanted to God could make you believe whatever God pleased.

Fortunately, you obviously have decided to believe whatever you damn well please - and have gotten off smite-free! This, I believe, is because you have been blessed with the gift of free-will. And with that free-will you have created a reality for yourself that is perfectly functional (and hopefully prosperous) without God. This, in my opinion is God's purpose - to create. Regardless of anything else, God is first and foremost the Creator, and free-will is the tool that God has given us to create our own realities, our own universes. Of course, free will also gives us the potential to destroy, but it is through these processes that we either grow closer to, or farther away from God.

Whatever we choose to do with this potential is our own responsibility and there are various rewards and consequences that we bring upon ourselves (and others) through these actions. None of this, however, suggests subversion or intrusion by a power hungry dictator-deity whose only purpose is control.

Of course, as ahmed previously stated, it's also possible that there is no intended purpose in all of this. There's an interesting concept of God the artist who simply creates here and there and none of it necessarily has to work or make sense and in the end you can interpret it as you see fit. I'd like to reiterate however, that the idea of authoritarianism in the mix just doesn't really jive when it comes to an omnipotent God.

I also disagree that if God exists it must be out of necessity, but I feel that is a discussion better suited for PM's or another discussion thread.

But wouldn't the concept of free-will be much more objectionable if Humans simply came into being for no apparent reason than something must have created us? Such an existence would force us to accept God's existence, thus negating free-will and consequently the purpose of creation.

Although I don't agree with this argument, one could make the point that 'or else' IS still a choice. You either choose union with God or separation from God. The choice is still yours to make. An issue does arise when you consider man's limited consciousness/comprehension of the divine, thus making a decision which some theologies suggest bears eternal consequences kind of unfair, but even in light of this unfairness (because who ever said God had to be fair?), the choice is still yours.

Doesn't necessarily need to be. God could just as easily be a passive unintentional participant who forgot the package in the back of the refrigerator growing humans. But to be honest, when ever we present a passive god people say, "well he does get involved just not excessively". I wonder just how they know just how much god is involved or its just something they want to believe rather than actual reality.

I really don't choose beliefs. It is a lowest common denominator that gets the favor but it is never set in stone because I allow for new information to challenge the standings. Give me something good and I might just use it.

What consequences? Are you talking about just in life or consequences after this life? Because one is obvious but not because of free will but because of the natural order of the world dictates it. Just like I have said before, I don't have the option to not eat and still live. I don't have the option to not play the game of picking and chosing, I must ALWAYS choose something. Where is the option not to chose?

Which is a possibility but if it is this way then it also has implications.

Not sure why you think it requires a different thread because it is in line with the question.

---------- Post added 11-22-2009 at 06:03 AM ----------

Exactly my point. Free will is a made up concept that doesn't actually exist. Just like I have mentioned there is never an option not to play the game. You must eat if you want to continue living. You have the illusion of choices but in reality you must choose. The options you have are limited. Where is the option to chose neither god nor not god? Where was my choice to not play the love god or hate god game? I didn't get that choice did I?

You see someone could ask me, who is your favorite baseball team? The question seems to be static that you must chose a team. But couldn't I just as easily say, "I don't like baseball so I don't have a favorite team." But according to your reasoning, you don't get the option to say, you don't like baseball, but instead you MUST pick a team. Therefore free will is just an illusion.

My previous paragraph points out the flaw in the logic here.

i am not really sure what you mean in the first paragraph. but i think a supreme being wouldnt require love. he might on the other hand require someone or something to love and care about...

in the second paragraph are you asking how would god have any fun if he always knew what was going to happen, and wouldnt it be boring to make up a bunch of lowly beings like us and sit watching as though we were a tv set?

one of the theories i read is that you are exactly right, the supreme being was bored and extremely lonely and that is what caused the universe to be born (and who kows how many other universes or events). if that were true, and if this being wanted surprises watching the sitcom that we are, he would give us free will-but not totally, because we are pretty dumb and dont know what might happen, we arent aware of the consequences.

is that the kind of question you are asking?

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"The idea is to die young as late as possible."....Ashley Montagu