I've spent many hours on the issue of whether God "gets involved" or not. I tend to be inclined to think that God wouldn't impose on our free-will by interfering with our actions, choices, perceptions, or beliefs.

I'm talking about in life. And are you sure about not having an option? Have you heard of a man named Hira Ratan Manik? Here's a guy who actually did exactly what you claim you cannot. He fasted for 441 days, and continued to live off of of the sun's energy and water. (link: Solar Healing Center)

This is but a purely superficial response anyway. Sure, due to certain physical properties, if you stopped eating your physical body would expire, but who says that's all there is to your life? I tend to believe that it probably isn't, and should you disagree then you're probably a physicalist, in which case I doubt that you're truly a lowest-common-denominator slave to rationality.

And, of course you must always choose something. Are you sure the option to not choose can even exist? An option is still a choice my brother. You'd still be choosing not to choose. That being said the very definition of "will" is the act or process of using or asserting one's choice. And I still assert that you are free to assert your choice as you see fit.


I guess that's true, now that I think about it.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's agnosticism then? Pretty sure they're neither god nor not god, more of a maybe God.

Who says you can't be indifferent towards God? I mean as far as you're already concerned there's no such thing as God, so God has absolutely no affect on your life anyway, right? Yeah, sure, there's still a-hole ignorant obnoxious fundamentalists, but that's not God's fault, so why hate God for that?

Are you sure the flaw in logic is mine? If so might I ask you to clarify a little better? I wouldn't be surprised if I'm just a big idiot because I'm missing something.

---------- Post added 11-22-2009 at 11:03 AM ----------

But then don't you have to ask yourself whether a supreme being who still requires something actually supreme?

Surely Salima that description is not one we would admire. To examine gods purpose you have to consider all the consequences of this existance. We are all bemused at others descriptions and others may be confused about ours. I never find any logic in any claims put forward, they all appear to change on investigation or just become weirder. I'm not against the notion but a reason for this existance is well beyond our comprehension, if there is one.

I get a sneaky suspicion we are our own invention and we are what we dont recognise.

If the universe doesnt require a purpose, why does God?

As for your comments about God, I dont follow your reasoning. I think it is quite possible, that humanity can not fully understand God, in His nature, composition, purpose, etc. We maybe able to identify certain attributes, such as omniscience, just, eternal etc, but the why and the how is beyond us.

As for your circular reasoning arguement, to paraphrase is as follows: you say that we have the ability to do as we like, but certain choices have negative outcomes, so therefore we have no freewill.

I do not see how this can be correct, just because some outcomes are undesirable, does not remove our ability to freely choose what to do.

I favour an opinion inbetween, not absolute free will, or absolute predestination. Its as if we are placed in a car, which we can not control the speed. When we come to a junction we can choose left, right or straight on, however we must choose, and we must continue on this journey, some are driving faster than others (short life!) . The ones that choose well, arrive at a good destination, those that live life in a evil fashion, end up in an undesirable place.

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Currently on ignore: Xris

The creation of value.

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The truth is easily vanquished but a well told lie is immortal (Mark Twain)

I wonder what makes the original poster think that God has a purpose or must have one?

I see that many people have brought this up as well.

-ITL-

But god has imposed. Let me put it another way. Let's say you are standing on the street corner contemplating crossing the street. Before you act you take out your handbook and look up what you should do. In the text it says that you should never cross the street because your god forbids it. So you wanting to follow the text do not cross the street. Therefore the only choice you made was one that was made for you. God imposed his desire of you.

I really was not talking about specifics, what I was getting at is, did you have the choice of being born? Did god come to you and ask if you wanted to play his game? Or better yet did god come to me and ask me to play his game and I said yes? I didn't have the option of NOT being born, I also don't have the option to not play the love god game. Therefore no free will.

I am a slave to how my brain processes the world. EVERY SINGLE thing I do uses that rationality yet when it comes to the idea of god that rationality is abandoned. So why if you use it for everything else abandon it for this? That is irrational. It would be like me stepping around an invisible object because I believe it is there.

Do I actually have to spell it out completely? Let's use voting as an example. You can vote for believing in god or you could vote for not believing. But isn't there an option to not vote at all? No because you HAVE to play the god game. People will classify those who refuse to cast their vote into the category of not believing, but that is intellectually dishonest. A non-vote is someone refusing to play the game. But like I said, where was the option of not being born?

Agnostics only make the claim that you can't completely know or not know a god exists. They seem to technically have both a plausibility of a god existing and the possibility that there is no god. It is an option but it is not the one I am referring to.

You could be indifferent but that wasn't what I was referring to. You could believe in god yet care nothing for that existence but you have still played the game.



No you are not an idiot. I just have not presented my case specific enough but the reason I didn't was to avoid having minute details picked apart. I didn't want the examples dissected but instead I want the question reviewed. Analyze the question, break it down into it's parts and answer it like that.

Exactly my point. It is why I ask the question. However if you say that god has no purpose then by all means I can also have no purpose. If I have no purpose then by all means my life could just be a fluke. A statistical chance that eventually happened.

---------- Post added 11-22-2009 at 03:52 PM ----------

Wouldn't it? If this is the case then by all means god would have an incompleteness, a need or requirement. God fulfills that requirement by creating.

Exactly.

---------- Post added 11-22-2009 at 04:03 PM ----------

What that question eventually leads to is whats the point of creating a universe to begin with. If there was no purpose, was it unintentional? Was it to fulfill something for god to create everything? Was god bored? Or does creating give god purpose for existence?

All I am trying to say is if you say god is omniscient by what criteria are you using? Because as far as I can tell, any and all possible traits must be considered if you make the claim that god is unknowable. Therefore god could just as easily be wicked and evil.

No it isn't about the negative outcomes. I am saying you have limited choice. Just like you only have two options in the god game. You either love god or hate god. You don't have the option to not play the game. You didn't have the option to not be born. You don't have the option to stop breathing and continue to live. You don't have the option to eat paint for food. You don't have the option to stop aging. You don't have the option to fly under your own power. You don't have the option to change your shape at will. You don't have the option to become a bolt of lightning. Do I need to go on or is my point made?

Right. So I would only say you have free will if there was no imposing rule. If god never makes any claims as to what god wants you to do, then by that very definition you have free will. But since god gets involved in some way by suggesting, requesting, ordering, you to behave in such and such a way then by all means you have lost free will.

Good analogy I like it. It also supports my argument. That you never had the choice to NOT get into the car. You are stuck in the seat and must play the game. Your choice has always been limited or imposed if you will allow me to use that word.

---------- Post added 11-22-2009 at 04:06 PM ----------

I ask because there are implications to the possible answers. Answers that I feel very few people have investigated to their fullest extent. Perhaps even answers that they ignore because it would disrupt their idealistic perspective of their god concept. It is a valid question and deserves full investigation.

in response (i will keep each point a separate paragraph) to the statements that i have put in bold print:

if you had not been born, you would have no choice...you had to be born to make the choice and accept the responsibility.

i notice you have referred to the 'love god' game and 'the game'. it seems to me that you are one who is not playing a love/hate god game, and you have been given that choice. we were not given a choice about birth (though some people actually say we were) but we have the choice of committing suicide, and may people choose to do just that.

this third statement is interesting. do you believe that only if god had a purpose in creating you that you can have a purpose? or do you believe that you have no choice in whether or not you have a purpose, that if god had no purpose then you cannot create one for yourself? do you believe if there is no god and the universe came to be on its own as a matter of natural events, then you have free will?

what is it when a person creates art, paintings, poetry etc....is that indicative of their having to fulfill some need? i know the word need was part of what i mentioned, but perhaps it was inappropriate. perhaps it is an innate drive...

i dont see that it has to imply there is something outside of the god that he must have or create-he is simply being creative with what he already is, like a person creates a personality for himself, builds character, etc. it may be an example of his free will. he can choose to create something or not, and have a purpose or not, etc. this is where people assume his will is absolute, and i would think if it is that is why he would be called God.

whoever believes in free will would have to agree that we have limited choice. so it looks as if everyone agrees on this point, it is a question of semantics once again.

i think you may be confusing free will with absolute will. what you are saying (suggesting, ordering a particular behavior) can be no different than mother saying to little kid "ok, you can watch television but only til it is time to go to bed." or "you can go outside and play in the yard, but dont go into the street." that doesnt completely take away the will of the child, but tries to teach him how to make better decisions and how to be safe. even an absolute ruler on earth does not have absolute will. as you already mentioned, he cannot soar through the air like a bird, he cannot drink paint instead of water, etc.

your last sentence pretty much sums it all up; we do not have absolute will, but we have a limited free will and can make various choices, plus we have been given guidance. the only way i can see that we are stuck with playing the game and have no free will is if we choose to check out, commit suicide, then find there is an afterlife that we cannot escape. and that could have just as easily happened if there were no creator, and we are only the result of the normal progression of the evolution of matter.

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"The idea is to die young as late as possible."....Ashley Montagu

Don't you mean, I had no choice in being born but still must accept the fact that I am alive? That is fine, but on top of that now I must learn about god, then I must make a new decision, accept or reject. But I am asking for a third option, I don't want to play the game. Do I have that option?

Actually I don't want to be apart of the game. Just like if someone says, hey put on one of those uniforms, either the christian one or the atheist one and get out on the field. I'm trying to say I don't want to play.

I have no desire to end my life by my own will. I know I will eventually die against my will but since that is the case I don't need to do it myself. There are other reserves as well of course. I could be wrong, I might miss out on something. To be honest life really isn't that bad that I would want out. My problem isn't actually with existing, it's with someone saying I need to choose a team.

The question is really just to point out that you don't need purpose.

If god has a purpose for me then by all means I wouldn't be able to choose my own purpose. I would just be living out his plan for what ever reason. But if god has no purpose then what is the motivation behind creating anything? When you create something it is usually for an outlet of either distraction or to relieve stress. It also could be an expression, an outlet to make yourself known in a way you can't do any other way. If god is doing that then god would have the same problem.

It would be closer to the definition. Since there is no underline good or bad actions the universe does not care what you do. If people actually believed that god would take care of all the injustice then there wouldn't be any need for us to take care of it. People really don't believe that the universe will be just so they take steps to make this existence just.

In some ways yes. When you do, it is an outlet for something. It could be emotional, it could be philosophical or it could be intellectual. Even the motivations can change even during the same project. Some might even use it as a way to escape their current reality. A way to put aside your problems doing something that won't hopefully cause any new ones.

I see problems with that.

Here is the thing though using your example. If your parent were to set down some rules, you actually have a third option. You can watch television but only until it is time for bed. There is another option here but with the philosophical debate you are not allowed the third option. My question is why.

ITL: "I wonder what makes the original poster think that God has a purpose or must have one?

You didn't answer my question at all.

I asked why you think God has a purpose.

You replied that people's answers to the question may have implications.

I didn't ask you what your motivation was for asking the question; I asked you why you think God must have a purpose.

Want to try again?

-ITL-

The creation of order, of complexity, of life, of mind, of experience and of value.
These things do come about in our universe. They do not come about easily. They do not come about quickly but they do come about. I would say Gods purpose is creative advance, the creation of value but it is a struggle. The "let there be ligt" version is a vast oversimplification. It was and is hard work; a struggle against the forces of chaos and entropy.

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The truth is easily vanquished but a well told lie is immortal (Mark Twain)