How you interpreted what I stated to mean that, I haven't a clue

Perhaps, instead, you could address my point:

Isn't the definition of omnipotent, all-powerful? That is, God can do everything? If he can do everything, why can he not do mistakes?

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Where does it say his expectations are of "perfection"? How many ways can I ask this question of you before you directly answer me?

Only if his standard is "perfection". But the fact remains that in the Jewish and Christian traditions his expectation is NOT "perfection", but rather faith, obedience (esp in law-heavy Judaism), and repentance. We're expected to not be "perfect" -- but we're at the same time expected to strive for it and repent our failure. And repentance of this failure is specifically rewarded by God.

If I'm supposed to not combine milk and meat, which is a Talmudic law in my religious background, but I go and have a cheeseburger, then that is a failure to follow an expectation. Whoops. I recognize this transgression. I pray for forgiveness of this transgression, and of that time I had covetous or violent thoughts, and of that time I questioned my faith. And I ask God to forgive me. Those are failures that become successes in the faithful, penitent person.

There are many ways of being imperfect. To be a mass murderer is a different kind of imperfect than to be a glutton.

First off, this is a conundrum in the Western model of God. Technically speaking, if God is omnipotent and omniscient, then I don't think it's logical for God's wants to be different than reality. Absolute power over everything means that what you want is, and what you don't want is not.

This is rationalized by free will, but free will is an abdication by God of power over our decisions. I can kill this ant by stamping my foot, but because I don't stamp my foot the ant has free will. Thus, the ant acts under its own will.

Theological explanations for this are plentiful, with the most interesting being the Kaballah (Jewish mysticism), in which God recedes from the earth with his creative efforts, he becomes distant, and evil is created by the incapacity of the world to contain his power (they speak of vessels that shatter under his creative efforts, and the shards create evil).

My mindset is strangely earthbound because I'm an earthling. Who am I, a casual Jew with an atheistic tendency, to think that I can understand the reasons why God would have created us in the way held by my tradition? I don't know. Maybe a giant experiment. Maybe to nurture us, while rewarding those who choose good and punish those who do not.

Sometimes you just plant some seeds and see what happens -- not everything is cut and snipped and tied and staked like a bansai tree.

We happen to be conversing in the "Christianity" subsection of the "Abrahamic Religions" forum. If you'd like to talk about Baal or Viracocha or Ọsun or Jupiter, then we're waaay out of the mold of abrahamic theology and the "logic" will certainly differ.

By the way, I haven't offered any "selected" biblical example here, so what exactly are you referring to?

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"How you get so big eating food of this kind?" -Yoda

Reasoning why it is not made clear in scriptures, your acceptance of the gaps in your understanding and then remark as if it was a reasonable response, not so.

Your god makes demands and if you fail, you fail your god, if you choose not to ask for forgiveness and continue to disobey god, what is your reception? You fail to understand the logic of not believing. Why make us imperfect ? is the first question. Why make us at all? is the next. Why make rules that an imperfect creation can not abide by? is another. You conform because it is your will not because of your imperfection.

You just dont see the logic of this claim of creation , do you? If you could create perfection why make it less than so? No excuses such as its a secret or some such nonsense.

---------- Post added 11-09-2009 at 04:23 PM ----------

so if he can and does , does that describe god. He lies and makes laws that say you must not lie, he creates but destroys, he destroys himself, he is not omniscient, he is...If you say he does then describe him in that manner, because i cant. I dont claim his existance, only question his description.

You must understand that I'm also questioning his (its) description. That's the basis for everything I've been typing.

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Again -- where exactly does it say that God expects perfection? Not following rules, not obeying, but perfection. Why can't you answer this?

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"How you get so big eating food of this kind?" -Yoda

Maybe perfection is not possible in a "real" world?

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It does not say we require perfection but what else is god expecting, if he desires we perform to his standards? The point of scriptures is to demand we obey and if we don't scriptures tell us of the consequences. If there were no consequences then gods imperfect creation is accepted, as such. Following rules, requires perfection. Would a perfect creation fail in gods demands? You don't design an imperfect coffee maker and then blame it because it does not work correctly. Face it your god is not logical.

---------- Post added 11-10-2009 at 05:48 AM ----------

Perfection is the claim of the faithful. If you make certain rules to abide by you expect perfection. We as humans know we are imperfect so we make allowances in our judgement. As god is our creator he is responsible for our imperfection therefor is held responsible for our errors. Its his fault not ours that we don't act in a perfect manner. Why did he make us imperfect and then require us to act differently.

In other words, God expects something of us, but there is no evidence that he expects perfection. Thank you. I agree.

He desires we perform to certain standards. We are not meant to be his equal. We are not meant to create worlds. We are not meant to judge souls. But we are meant to not murder each other.

Funny then that neither the Old nor the New Testament tell us the consequences of disobedience, except maybe Lot's wife turning into a pillar of salt and some other anecdotes. And obedience is only really emphasized in the Torah, i.e. the five books of Moses, and in a couple other places (like Job). Most of the Old Testament, and particularly the part after the books of Moses (like the prophets and the writings) are simply historical narrative. The emphasis on obedience, heaven, and hell is largely extrascriptural (and derived from Virgil more than from scripture).

Why then doesn't Judaism, a religion that is FAR more emphatic about obedience than Christianity, have a heaven or hell?

Only if God chose not to control all human decisions.

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"How you get so big eating food of this kind?" -Yoda

I don't think this is going anywhere, you see god as a creator of imperfection that has no real intention of judging his creation. I see a vengeful god who throughout scripture demands we act in accordance to his laws and if we dont we may expect his anger. There is more in the bible than the punishment of Ruth. A certain prophets bears ate a few cheeky kids for actually taking the mick out of him. The Egyptians did not exactly have a good time, suffering from his intentions. The bible is littered with this vengeful gods wrath.

The revelations, a christian warning to all those who oppose god is laws or ignore his advice.

I say nothing of the sort on either point.

1. That humans are imperfect is universally understood in Judaism and Christianity.

2. It is generally felt that human imperfection is our own doing and not a specific consequence of God's agency

3. The degree to which God judges, rewards, and condemns is highly variable in this group of religions. How can you compare Unitarianism with Calvinism? How can you compare Reform Judaism with Roman Catholocism?

There is no uniform dogma, and part of the reason is that the ideas of imperfection, judgement, and consequence do NOT come directly from scripture!!

And yet all you're doing is citing anecdotes and not general principles or dictates. With good reason -- scripture lacks general principles or dictates on much of this subject, so the religious metaphysics of human imperfection and sin and punishment is a derivation. It comes from theology and tradition, not from scripture!

And that was one book at the end of one gospel written by one author, and if I'm not mistaken it is the single latest piece of writing to be included in the Christian Bible -- so it cannot be seen as representing the views of the many authors of the Old Testament and the remainder of the New Testament that had been put together over the previous 1200+ years. Secondly, Revelations is a work of apocalyptic literature -- it's not about disobedience. Thirdly, whatever you or I might say about Revelations, it is the single most controversial piece of the entire Christian Bible and there is no interpretation of it that is universally accepted as true.

That is because you're making unfounded, sweeping statements about something you haven't researched in the slightest, yet you just dig in your heels rather than try to have a conversation.

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"How you get so big eating food of this kind?" -Yoda