What Is Real?

[nameless]

Originally Posted by Ποσειδῶν

What is real. Is it something you can see, touch, hear and smell?
If so what about hallucinating to the person hallucinating they can sense (see,touch,smell etc.) the hallucinatons, so does that make them real?
Personally i think it does.

Everything is real. Everything exists (in it's context).
Hallucinations and dreams are as real as hamburgers. All exist (are perceived) in context.
Nothing exists that is not perceived.
And vise versa.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by richrf

Hi,

I tend to agree with you.

When I am dreaming I think it is real, even though others cannot sense or corroborate the dream that I am having.

I know people who had Alzheimer's disease who certainly felt that what they were seeing was real.

I was in a situation in on a jury when it was 12 to 1 against me that something was said during testimony. They all felt that I was sort of crazy for suggesting that I could have heard something that none of them did. However, when the court reporter's transcript was read it had the statements as I remembered them. Now it as 12 to 2 (me and the court reporter), but since legally the court reporter's transcripts is the official recording I was considered correct. Go figure.

So what is real changes depending upon who is perceiving, what type of corroboration is given, the legal authority of the entities, etc. Lot's of people see things that I don't see and vice-versa. Which is real? A group can reach a consensus, but that is all they can do. Each person is still perceiving their own unique view of what is happening.

Rich

You obviously must mean that what is thought to be real may change with who is perceiving, for one perceiver can think something is real, and another can think the same thing is not real, and they cannot both be right. But if what you actually wrote were true, and what was real (and not merely what was thought to be real) depended on the perceiver, then they both would be right, and that would be a contradiction. And, whatever implies a contradiction is, itself, contradictory. You the view you advance would be contradictory. But since you could not want to contradict yourself, you must really mean that what is thought to be real may change with the perceiver.
Isn't that right?

[dharma_bum]

I never define real by what we see, hear, etc. I define real as what we believe in.

If reality is defined by the senses, does that mean that the blind man exists in a less real world?

[richrf]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

You obviously must mean that what is thought to be real may change with who is perceiving,

Is there another way to think without thought?

for one perceiver can think something is real, and another can think the same thing is not real, and they cannot both be right.

This is the reason I do not think in terms of right or wrong. Each person perceives and thinks differently. There is no problem unless either one or both insist that they are right. Then you have discussions, arguments, or worse, as has been the case prior to all great wars. Right makes Fight.

[QUOTE But if what you actually wrote were true, and what was real (and not merely what was thought to be real) depended on the perceiver, then they both would be right, and that would be a contradiction. [/QUOTE]

It is not a contradiction. It happens all the time in life. Two or more people, organizations, religions, countries, ethic groups, etc. think they are right. The concept of right is just a belief. A form of faith that somehow one has been able to transcend themselves and tap into a greater truth. It is OK to have this belief. It is part of the fabric of humanity. The biggest holders of this kind of faith are scientists and religious followers. I don't know how they transcend their own minds, but somehow they have figured out how to do it, and because if it they feel that they are more right than others. C'est la vie.

And, whatever implies a contradiction is, itself, contradictory. You the view you advance would be contradictory.

The contradiction is introduced because of the concepts that are being introduced. It is natural to want to be more right than someone else. Establishes authority which is ever present in governments, social groups, religions, science, etc.

Rich

---------- Post added 07-12-2009 at 01:09 PM ----------

Originally Posted by dharma_bum

I never define real by what we see, hear, etc. I define real as what we believe in.

If reality is defined by the senses, does that mean that the blind man exists in a less real world?

I agree. And to carry it one step further, how about all of the people who are asleep and dreaming? No senses are being used, other than the sense of mind. Is their world, while they are actually dreaming, any less real. It certainly is my real world as I am asleep?

Rich

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by dharma_bum

I never define real by what we see, hear, etc. I define real as what we believe in.

If reality is defined by the senses, does that mean that the blind man exists in a less real world?

Who is the "we"? Some people believe in ghosts, and some people don't believe in ghosts. So does that mean that ghosts are both real and not real?

---------- Post added 07-13-2009 at 09:48 AM ----------

Originally Posted by richrf

Is there another way to think without thought?




This is the reason I do not think in terms of right or wrong. Each person perceives and thinks differently. There is no problem unless either one or both insist that they are right. Then you have discussions, arguments, or worse, as has been the case prior to all great wars. Right makes Fight.

[QUOTE But if what you actually wrote were true, and what was real (and not merely what was thought to be real) depended on the perceiver, then they both would be right, and that would be a contradiction.

It is not a contradiction. It happens all the time in life. Two or more people, organizations, religions, countries, ethic groups, etc. think they are right. The concept of right is just a belief. A form of faith that somehow one has been able to transcend themselves and tap into a greater truth. It is OK to have this belief. It is part of the fabric of humanity. The biggest holders of this kind of faith are scientists and religious followers. I don't know how they transcend their own minds, but somehow they have figured out how to do it, and because if it they feel that they are more right than others. C'est la vie.



The contradiction is introduced because of the concepts that are being introduced. It is natural to want to be more right than someone else. Establishes authority which is ever present in governments, social groups, religions, science, etc.

Rich

---------- Post added 07-12-2009 at 01:09 PM ----------



I agree. And to carry it one step further, how about all of the people who are asleep and dreaming? No senses are being used, other than the sense of mind. Is their world, while they are actually dreaming, any less real. It certainly is my real world as I am asleep?

Rich[/QUOTE]

There is no other way to think than with thought. What makes you think I denied that?

How would it follow from the fact that people think differently that there is no right or wrong? I don't understand that. What is right or wrong (or true or false) is independent of how people think. So why would it matter to whether there is true or false whether people think the same way, or they think differently. If you think that Quito is the capital of Ecuador, and I think it is the capital of Bolivia, it is the capital of whatever country it is the capital of, and it doesn't matter what you think or what I think.

Of course dreaming is different from waking life. What makes you think it isn't? And what you dream is not real, since you might be dreaming that you are in India on the back of an elephant, shooting tigers, when you are really at home asleep in your bed. But why should I have to tell you that? All sane adults know that.

[richrf]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

What is right or wrong (or true or false) is independent of how people think.

And who decided what was right and wrong for you. A rabbit?

And what you dream is not real, since you might be dreaming that you are in India on the back of an elephant, shooting tigers, when you are really at home asleep in your bed. But why should I have to tell you that? All sane adults know that.

When I am dreaming, that is my real world during that period of time. I have no idea I am dreaming.


Rich

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by richrf

Is there another way to think without thought?




This is the reason I do not think in terms of right or wrong. Each person perceives and thinks differently. There is no problem unless either one or both insist that they are right. Then you have discussions, arguments, or worse, as has been the case prior to all great wars. Right makes Fight.

[QUOTE But if what you actually wrote were true, and what was real (and not merely what was thought to be real) depended on the perceiver, then they both would be right, and that would be a contradiction.

It is not a contradiction. It happens all the time in life. Two or more people, organizations, religions, countries, ethic groups, etc. think they are right. The concept of right is just a belief. A form of faith that somehow one has been able to transcend themselves and tap into a greater truth. It is OK to have this belief. It is part of the fabric of humanity. The biggest holders of this kind of faith are scientists and religious followers. I don't know how they transcend their own minds, but somehow they have figured out how to do it, and because if it they feel that they are more right than others. C'est la vie.



The contradiction is introduced because of the concepts that are being introduced. It is natural to want to be more right than someone else. Establishes authority which is ever present in governments, social groups, religions, science, etc.

Rich

---------- Post added 07-12-2009 at 01:09 PM ----------



I agree. And to carry it one step further, how about all of the people who are asleep and dreaming? No senses are being used, other than the sense of mind. Is their world, while they are actually dreaming, any less real. It certainly is my real world as I am asleep?

Rich[/QUOTE]

There is no other way to think than with thought. What makes you think I denied that?

How would it follow from the fact that people think differently that there is no right or wrong? I don't understand that. What is right or wrong (or true or false) is independent of how people think. So why would it matter to whether there is true or false whether people think the same way, or they think differently. If you think that Quito is the capital of Ecuador, and I think it is the capital of Bolivia, it is the capital of whatever country it is the capital of, and it doesn't matter what you think or what I think.

Of course dreaming is different from waking life. What makes you think it isn't? And what you dream is not real, since you might be dreaming that you are in India on the back of an elephant, shooting tigers, when you are really at home asleep in your bed. But why should I have to tell you that? All sane adults know that.

[validity]

Originally Posted by dharma_bum

If reality is defined by the senses, does that mean that the blind man exists in a less real world?

It is a good question. I think a suitable response is that a blind man senses the real world less.

[Holiday20310401]

I think it might rather have something to do with how much one wills to sense of their environment to determine how 'real' the world is. For some people, the world may not be real at all.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by dharma_bum

I never define real by what we see, hear, etc. I define real as what we believe in.

If reality is defined by the senses, does that mean that the blind man exists in a less real world?

No. The blind man lives in exactly the same world you and I live in. There is only one world. Of course, in some ways the world may seem less real to the blind man. But that is another matter entirely.