Is God omnipotent?

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by prothero

Such is the evolution of everything, science, culture, politics,
What is wrong with evolution, why shouldnt religion evolve too?

There is nothing wrong with evolution (unless you're a creationist or an ID'er).

Religion can and does evolve.

My point, in response to the idea of creating a new conception of the divine, is the risk that new conception of the divine will eventually become as dogmatic and repressive as the old conception of the divine. Or, as The Who said, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

[salima]

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

There is nothing wrong with evolution (unless you're a creationist or an ID'er).

Religion can and does evolve.

My point, in response to the idea of creating a new conception of the divine, is the risk that new conception of the divine will eventually become as dogmatic and repressive as the old conception of the divine. Or, as The Who said, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

by changing our conceptions hopefully we can change the process of our relating to them as well. it isnt only religion that needs to evolve within the human mind and outwardly in human behavior. that needs to be done in all areas of life on earth, i would say.

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by salima

by changing our conceptions hopefully we can change the process of our relating to them as well. it isnt only religion that needs to evolve within the human mind and outwardly in human behavior. that needs to be done in all areas of life on earth, i would say.

Just a few rambling thoughts I'll throw out as I am trying to get out of here . . .

While I agree with your sentiments, I suspect that such a change would be impossible.

To (sort of) stay on the track of the original post, if such a change could be made, it could be argued that it would only be because it was God's will that such a change come about.

Or, it could be that God doesn't care what sort of conception of the divine we have. As an omnipotent God, a plan has already been made, and it is flawless. To make a change in the plan would be, I would think, the equivalent of God saying, "I made a mistake."

Is it possible to be omnipotent and fallible at the same time? I'm a bit unnerved by that idea.

If God is not omnipotent, why bother with any sort of worship at all? Would we praise the landlord that can't seem to get heat into our apartment, yet continues to demand rent be paid on time?

Why bother with a new conception of the divine at all? I can decide that I am going to have a new conception of my boss, but my boss isn't going to change.

We can conceive of whatever however we want, but it ain't necessarily going to make it so.


TTM

[salima]

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

Just a few rambling thoughts I'll throw out as I am trying to get out of here . . .

While I agree with your sentiments, I suspect that such a change would be impossible.

To (sort of) stay on the track of the original post, if such a change could be made, it could be argued that it would only be because it was God's will that such a change come about.

Or, it could be that God doesn't care what sort of conception of the divine we have. As an omnipotent God, a plan has already been made, and it is flawless. To make a change in the plan would be, I would think, the equivalent of God saying, "I made a mistake."

Is it possible to be omnipotent and fallible at the same time? I'm a bit unnerved by that idea.

If God is not omnipotent, why bother with any sort of worship at all? Would we praise the landlord that can't seem to get heat into our apartment, yet continues to demand rent be paid on time?

Why bother with a new conception of the divine at all? I can decide that I am going to have a new conception of my boss, but my boss isn't going to change.

We can conceive of whatever however we want, but it ain't necessarily going to make it so.


TTM

it might be god's will that such a change would come about, but i dont think he has to make it happen. he could be watching it happen, letting it happen, because he gave us limited free will. if he gave us unlimited free will we would be too stupid to handle it and get fried in a heartbeat.

i dont think a god could make mistakes-but he could change his mind.

i think if we are obligated or simply inspired to praise or worship god, it would because he actually loved us and cared about us and did his best to help us not to screw up everything. and at the same time, i believe he would not demand praise or worship since he wouldnt require it. (i dont mean he because it is part of my particular concept, it is only for ease in conversation.) because if there was a god who loved us, he would certainly be worthy of praise; we are really unlovable, dont you think so? hehehe-like the phrase 'a face only a mother could love' we are a race only a god could love.

you can get a conception of your boss that would be a lot closer to the truth than we could come to trying to imagine a god/being/energy that exists but cannot be seen and has had some contact breaking through to us through revelations which are filtered through the human mind and mouth. and there is no need to try and get a new conception-as we change and evolve, our ability to comprehend more of what may be beyond our own limitations will evolve too. conceptions just happen-we cant avoid them. they are like word associations.

and i appreciate and understand your wanting to get out of here!

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by salima

i dont think a god could make mistakes-but he could change his mind.

But why would he? The consequences of God changing His mind seem unimaginable. Everything would have to change . . . even the past.

[salima]

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

But why would he? The consequences of God changing His mind seem unimaginable. Everything would have to change . . . even the past.

why would he? just like when an artist starts a painting or a musician starts composing a song, the end result is often a surprise to him. as the work grows the artist reacts to it and it takes on a new direction.

i dont see why everything would have to change-it could be a very small subtle idea like an artist changing only a chord in one spot that affects the whole rest of the work and its meaning; it goes on to become something different than what it was conceived of originally.

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by salima

why would he? just like when an artist starts a painting or a musician starts composing a song, the end result is often a surprise to him. as the work grows the artist reacts to it and it takes on a new direction.

i dont see why everything would have to change-it could be a very small subtle idea like an artist changing only a chord in one spot that affects the whole rest of the work and its meaning; it goes on to become something different than what it was conceived of originally.

Let's say that God's original plan called for me to be killed by an inattentive texting driver while riding my motorcycle.

For some reason, right before the moment of impact, God changes his mind and decides I need to live.

So, God causes the driver to look up from their phone just in time to swerve slightly and not hit me, or to make my reflexes just a tad quicker so that I get out of the way, and the driver and I both breathe a sigh of relief over the near miss and go our separate ways.

Great. Good for both of us.

But now, what are the consequences further down the timeline?

Now God has to account for the changes, however tiny they may be, that my still being alive has on the future that He hadn't originally built into the plan.

And what of the driver? What if their accidental killing of me was supposed to be their lesson, which now they haven't really learned, so later on they wind up doing the same thing and this time killing someone who was originally supposed to have lived?

And what of the past? Perhaps the only way God could change the path of the texting driver was to subtly change all of the events in their history that led them to be on a particular stretch of road, at a particular time, engaged in a particular act. Or, perhaps God would have somehow had to arrange things in such a way that I never came to own a motorcycle in the first place.

No matter how you slice it, it seems to me that God changing his mind would be far more trouble than it's worth.

But, if all this is true, would that mean that free will really is nothing more than an illusion?

Have a nice weekend Salima. I'm out of here until Monday!

[IntoTheLight]

Originally Posted by prothero

I think god is good and loving but not in the traditional or orthodox way. God is not “personal”. God will not save you or answer your prayers.

That's an interesting perspective; I've had completely different experiences.

I have a personal relationship with God and, moreover, God regularly answers my prayers and gives me guidance on a daily basis. There are some behaviors in my life that I am powerless over (eg. I sometimes feel compelled to do them), however God grants me assistance on a daily basis to resist the desire to perform these compulsive behaviors. I realize that God is doing for me what I cannot do for myself.

I'm not questioning your conceptualization of God; merely offering a dfferent experiential viewpoint.

[prothero]

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

Let's say that God's original plan called for me to be killed by an inattentive texting driver while riding my motorcycle.!

And why would you think, God has the slightest interest in what happens to you while you are riding your motorcycle? or that god has that kind of a detailed plan for you or anyone else for that matter?

---------- Post added 12-04-2009 at 10:47 PM ----------

Originally Posted by IntoTheLight

That's an interesting perspective; I've had completely different experiences.
. I realize that God is doing for me what I cannot do for myself.
I'm not questioning your conceptualization of God; merely offering a dfferent experiential viewpoint.
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I never really argue with other people's subjective exprience. My response is that belief in god, in higher purpose, in transcendent value is capable of giving people the inspiration to do that which they think themselves incapable of doing on their own or for themselves. God may talk to you but if it is in a loud clear voice I would have my concerns.

[salima]

i must admit, i dont think god would pay such close attention to detail in every creature's life either. when i mentioned he might change his mind, it was on a grander scale than that! but at the same time, there may be personal answers coming through our own voices and thoughts. i dont think he plans everything that will happen to everyone individually, but if one person's plight comes to his attention for some reason he may decide to intervene. also he may introduce us to each other as a means of balancing some events that are getting out of hand. i dont believe god is omnipotent, but i think he would have to be really wise...

i dont believe he wants to run the whole show. i think he/she/it/they is like a parent watching children play, wanting them to resolve their own problems and grow up. i know that is an old fashionde way of looking at god, like a father-but an artist becomes the parent of his creation, to be sure. he allows it to become what it was meant to be, but tries to help it along to imbue it with some of his own character.