In your view, why do people want to believe in a God?

[Krumple]

Originally Posted by IntoTheLight

Good question. I know because I had a personal experience with God and because God continues to help me with things I am personally powerless over. The help is external in nature ie. coming from an outside source.

Interesting, because I thought I just read that you say god doesn't intervene. So god intervenes just not always? Selective intervention? He helps you but ignores children starving in third world countries?

Originally Posted by IntoTheLight

You certainly could pretend that, but you would be aware of the fact that you were pretending that so it wouldn't truly be real to you. Having a relationship with God is completely real to me. I have no doubt whatsoever that it exists.

So what is the criteria that you are using to know it is not your imagination or self creation? Would you share what measurement you are using?

Originally Posted by IntoTheLight

Anything is possible, but my experiences have shown to me this God entity does exist and has helped me in ways that I could not do so on my own. As I stated earlier, there are some things that I am powerless over and I recognize my limitations in these matters. However, I have asked God for assistance and it has been provided.

Sounds like superstition. You did something, and something happened and you accounted the result as being gods work.

Originally Posted by IntoTheLight

I choose to believe that help comes from God; you may think it's an elaborate subconcsious delusion - that's up to you. =)

What else do I have to go off of? I once passed a man who claimed my mom broke his nose off in Egypt. Am I suppose to take his word for such an act because he actually believed it was true?

[IntoTheLight]

Krumple,

It's pretty clear due to the sarcastic tone of your posts that you're not really interested in having an objective discussion.

I believe that God exists and you don't.

Fine by me. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

--IntoTheLight--

[Zipacna]

They want to create something to blame their problems

[xris]

Originally Posted by IntoTheLight

Krumple,

It's pretty clear due to the sarcastic tone of your posts that you're not really interested in having an objective discussion.

I believe that God exists and you don't.

Fine by me. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

--IntoTheLight--

Its not sarcasm its asking relevant questions. It appears you expected an easy ride on your proposed view of the god you are so certain of. You insist on not answering questions and see them as some kind of personal attack. The pulpit is the place for you where the like minded just mumble appreciation.

I have spiritual beliefs that have no reason in reality but I dont display them as flags of certainty. If you have beliefs, be humble enough to debate their sincerity.

[Alexandergreat3]

Before this topic get sidetracked onto another topic, please let me clarify that the purpose of this topic is NOT about debating whether or not God or some supreme beings exist.

The focus is on the people - WHY it is in many people's nature to seek out God or a supreme being.

What is the need, the drive, or desire that lead people to do so?

For instance,

when people are hungry, they look for food;
when people are thirsty, they look for water.

These are universal needs in all human.

But what about when people go looking for God or supreme beings?
What is the source of the need?

Why are there people who DON'T have the need to look for God or supreme beings?
But why are there people who DO have the need to look for God or supreme beings?

Once again, the focus is on the people.

[xris]

There is a third,those who see the possibility but refuse to accept the necessity or invent for illogical reasons. I cant imagine anyone , even the devout atheist, who would not find it comforting to realise a deeper meaning to life than they imagined.

[Krumple]

Originally Posted by IntoTheLight

Krumple,

It's pretty clear due to the sarcastic tone of your posts that you're not really interested in having an objective discussion.

I believe that God exists and you don't.

Fine by me. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

--IntoTheLight--

None of my responses were intended sarcasm or to mock your belief in any way. The thing that is happening here is, that you seem to have something that I do not. I am trying to figure out just what you have and why I don't have it. Is there something wrong with me, that I don't have this thing you are talking about? How come I never get there? If you have a chunk of information that I could use, I request it. That is why I have bombarded you with questioning. If you would rather not answer, that is your choice but it does nothing to back up your statements.

[IntoTheLight]

Originally Posted by Krumple

None of my responses were intended sarcasm or to mock your belief in any way.

Fair enough. I apologize to you for the misinterpretation.

The thing that is happening here is, that you seem to have something that I do not. I am trying to figure out just what you have and why I don't have it.

You could have it to, if you wanted it. I was a atheist for 10 years and spent a lot of time on message forums such as this one asking the same questions and making many of the same arguments that you have made. In a way, it's kind of funny to me to be on the other side of the equation now. I have often laughed at God's sense of humor and irony.

In any case, I believe you because I was looking for the same thing. It took me seven years of serious online debating and theology discussions to realize it, however. And even then, it didn't happen overnight.

Is there something wrong with me, that I don't have this thing you are talking about?

There's nothing inherently wrong with you. I'm not qualified to judge you, but I can tell you what was wrong with me when I was in the position you are in now:

I wanted a very precise answer that was concrete in nature and could be easily demonstrated.

Reminds me of a passage from the book, Zorba The Greek by Nikos Kazantzikas:

Zorba: "Why do the young die? Why does anybody die? Tell me!"

Scholar: "I don't know."

Zorba: "What's the use of all your da_mn books? If they don't tell you that, what the hell do they tell you?"

Scholar: "They tell me of the agony of young men who can't answer questions like yours."

Just about every theist I got into with (religious extremists excepted) told me virtually the same thing: there is no 'proof' - having a relationship with God has to be based on faith and humility.

I found that very frustrating and empty because I concieved of myself (eg. my intellect, experiences, education, self-determination) as infinitely superior to any "made-up god that some delusional nut had" - my words at the time.

I was guilty of 'contempt prior to investigation'. However, there are certain things in my life that I quickly realized I was powerless over. If I had the power to solve all my problems myself - I would've done so a long time ago.
But I couldn't.

After a long, long time I finally made an Agnostic prayer, something like this: "God, if there is a god, help me with this problem because I can't do anything about it myself. If you are willing to help me, I will do my best to do your will in all things. I make myself your servant. Please help me."

The thing is: I genuinely meant it all in complete humility and submission. I was about two days away from committing suicide; I have attempted suicide three times. I needed help and there was nobody to turn to, so I turned to God - if there was a god.

In that moment, I felt God's presence in my life for the first time. I don't mean that figuratively - I literally felt emcompassed by a external presence
that affected me physically, emotionally, intellectually, and, for the first time, spiritually. My clumsy summary doesn't do it justice - it was beyond anything I've ever experience in my life. I've done a lot of drugs and it was nothing like that. It was a complete body and mind experience that transcended anything else I've ever experienced in my life. I really can't adequately describe it to you.

It was a spiritual awakening and many things were revealed to me in an instant. And I knew that God had always been with me and always would be with me. I was surrounded by a feeling of complete love, compassion, hope, and strength. None of it came from me. It was like someone flicked a switch and turned on a powerful light that illuminated all of the darkness inside me.

A line from the movie Ben Hur comes to mind: "There are many paths to God... I hope yours will not be too difficult."

Everyone experiences God differently and it doesn't happen the same way for all people. I have been told by many long-term theists that former Atheists often have spectacular experiences because they come to God in one second, whereas, many theists come to know God gradually over the course of years, starting with belief early in life.

I'm not suggesting that my experiences will be duplicated for anyone else, but I have met other former Atheists who've reported the same kind of instant envelopment I had.

How come I never get there? If you have a chunk of information that I could use, I request it.

Certainly: you have to really be humble and really want it bad enough. You have to be willing to believe on faith that God is capable of helping you and being part of your life. That is not an easy thing to do. I searched for God for nearly 20 years, but what I realized later is that I always wanted God on my terms. I wanted God to fix my problems, but I didn't want to submit to God.

I think the key to it all is complete humility and submission and patience.

If anyone has those, they can know God.

Reguarding submission, it is submission to the care of God; not the control of God. You will never lose your free will.

Be careful what you wish for, though: if experience God, a lot of things in your life will change and habits & ideas that have been with you for years may suddenly become unappealing to you. A whole new way of life will emerge and there will be many changes, some of which you may not like initially. You may not find happiness, but you will find serenity.

Remember this, also: you can conceptualize God in any way you choose. You do not have to limit yourself to the traditional ideas handed down by any religion, cult, sect, or philosophy. The point of this is to have a God that you can work with on your own. God is bigger than any human conceptualization.

That is why I have bombarded you with questioning.

Thank you for the clarification. -- I'll be posting a new thread on this subject later and I'll message you when I post it.

If you have any questions, I may not be able to answer them, but please feel free to ask.

--IntoTheLight--

[hue-man]

Originally Posted by xris

There is a third,those who see the possibility but refuse to accept the necessity or invent for illogical reasons. I cant imagine anyone , even the devout atheist, who would not find it comforting to realise a deeper meaning to life than they imagined.

From my understanding of reality, it is only possible in the sense that anything is possible, which is an absolute skepticism that I wish not to posit for practical and rational purposes. Such a position is redundant.

I'm not so sure that I would find it comforting to realize a transcendent purpose to existence and life. The idea that I am being controlled or predetermined by another being's will would be somewhat unpleasant to me. I prefer to write my own novel.

---------- Post added 11-21-2009 at 06:51 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Krumple

The Buddha isn't a god. Enlightenment isn't about living for ever and Nirvana is not a heaven. It is called blissful because there is nothing. Nirvana is referred to as a "blowing out" or "extinguished flame". Basically when the desire for existence ceases then that is nirvana.

I believe that some traditions hold Buddha to be a deity. I reject the idea of nirvana. Nirvana is the will to nothingness; the ascetic ideal. It finds existence to be so hard that it devalues it altogether. It's a way of giving up the battle and deluding yourself to believe that you've won.

Originally Posted by Krumple

There is a heaven realm in certain buddhist schools of thought but they are considered inconsistent and impermanent. Meaning you do not exist in heaven for ever and the Buddha is noted with saying the heaven realm is still subject to the desire for existence which will ultimately lead to future suffering (dukkha).

Now that sounds pessimistic.

---------- Post added 11-21-2009 at 06:58 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Theaetetus

In general, humans often want to believe in a God for comfort and to provide value to their existence. The idea that there is no God can lead people to despair and hopelessness, and thus, nihilism. But the idea that there is a God can provide comfort that they are not alone in a vast cold universe. The idea that heaven is the next potential place in the journey of the soul gives value to this life in that there is a future reward.

All of this is very true, but these beliefs are expressions of passive nihilism. This passive nihilism is used to ward off active nihilism, but what most believers do not realize is that it is precisely this passive nihilism that leads to active nihilism in the first place.

[Krumple]

Originally Posted by IntoTheLight

Fair enough. I apologize to you for the misinterpretation.

You don't really need to apologize. My style of debate is not quite orthodox and given black and white letters lack inflections it is easy to get the message mixed up.

Originally Posted by IntoTheLight

You could have it to, if you wanted it.

This is what I am skeptical about. Want implies an additive on my part. Wanting something to be is different than it actually being. So is this to imply that I must first "do" something to fulfill the want?

Originally Posted by IntoTheLight

I was a atheist for 10 years and spent a lot of time on message forums such as this one asking the same questions and making many of the same arguments that you have made. In a way, it's kind of funny to me to be on the other side of the equation now. I have often laughed at God's sense of humor and irony.

I do the same thing but not with spiritual or religious stuff. Every now and then I get a recap memory of something silly I did and almost relive the embarrassment until I remind myself that probably no one else remembers it so why let it bother me? I think change is something constant with our minds so there will always be moments like switching sides to a topic.

Originally Posted by IntoTheLight

In any case, I believe you because I was looking for the same thing. It took me seven years of serious online debating and theology discussions to realize it, however. And even then, it didn't happen overnight.

Well I'm not looking for a quick fix. I just don't get why it seems to be so convoluted.

Originally Posted by IntoTheLight

There's nothing inherently wrong with you. I'm not qualified to judge you, but I can tell you what was wrong with me when I was in the position you are in now:

I wanted a very precise answer that was concrete in nature and could be easily demonstrated.

The answer doesn't necessarily have to be concrete or precise just consistent. It seems strange to me to have this brain that operates in such a way to exist in this world yet I am requested to abandon those behaviors in order to accept the making of this brain. Sounds like to me requesting a car to bake a cake instead of transport a passenger.