Acceptance/rejection God/man

[de Silentio]

well the Theodicy problem is one of the few things that you can beat religion on logicly and the Theodicy problem is about why there's evil in the world if there's an all-mighty god, as he could stop it. And to tell you the truth, you doesn't have any logical argument to why my logic in the Theodicy problem wheren't "real logic" as you call it, the only "fake logic" I know is the once that alot of christians use when they try to explain why there has to be a god because they often use assumptions and try to pass of the bible as proof of anything

Not to be the person who corrects people, but a Theodicy is an answer to the problem of evil, not the problem of evil itself. I never used the term ‘real logic’. I merely said it wasn’t good logic, formal or informal. You blindly made some statements about evil and God, and quoted some statements. Logic is logic: All A are B, All B are C, Therefore All A are C. You could have also used informal logic, but I don’t think your claim was adequately supported by your evidence

Furthermore, you make gross generalizations about what Christians think, and claim that they tailor what the Bible says to support their arguments, which is exactly what you would do with your ‘arguments straight from the bible’ that would make Christianity collapse. You defeat yourself.

So why don't you tell me, in "real logic" why god exsists and possibly, the answer to the Theodicy problem?

You asked me to give you logical evidence that God exist, why is the burden of proof on me? I asked you to give me logical reasons to why God doesn’t exist.

Well, it's not only really that I can use arguments straight from the bible to make atleast christianity collaps but I've found that christians loves to chance their minds on how the bible should be taken, if something isn't right or if it says something against itself, then the bible shouldn't be taken littarally but if something is moraly right in the bible, it should.

Your irrateness gives no credence to your argument, and frankly it makes you look stupid. Please don’t use profane language, it is unnecessary. I put together some arguments against your claims, but find that it is fruitless to argue with someone who so plainly has prejudices against what others say. If you would like my arguments, I will give them to you.

As for the problem of evil, there are plenty of Theodicies that solve the problem. I am not intelligent enough to formulate them myself, so I won’t begin to act like I did, but there is a particularly good article that Alvin Plantiga made.

they can't say that you're wrong, they can only use that some bullshit argument as you just used

Why is my argument crap? Yet again, nothing you said against my argument relates to my argument, it relates to others arguments that you are using to generalize what I think.

And by the way, since you claim that Christians have no Facts that God does exist, please give me some Facts that he doesn’t exist.

[Wizzy]

Originally Posted by de Silentio

Not to be the person who corrects people, but a Theodicy is an answer to the problem of evil, not the problem of evil itself. I never used the term ‘real logic’. I merely said it wasn’t good logic, formal or informal. You blindly made some statements about evil and God, and quoted some statements. Logic is logic: All A are B, All B are C, Therefore All A are C. You could have also used informal logic, but I don’t think your claim was adequately supported by your evidence

It's easy to use logic in somecases and in somecases not. I know that nomather what I say you're only gonna say something about superpowers and stuff like that and that's why my claim can't be wrong or simply ignore it as you did with the starving kids... But you might say that it's stupid and doesn't prove anything but I would still like to know if YOU have any scenario where children starving to death do any good for anything?

Originally Posted by de Silentio

Furthermore, you make gross generalizations about what Christians think

Well, yeah I do. Simply because I've talked and debated this subject with lots of christians, both over internett and in person and I seem to get pretty much the same answers every single time so there has to be a connection, don't you think?

Originally Posted by de Silentio

and claim that they tailor what the Bible says to support their arguments, which is exactly what you would do with your ‘arguments straight from the bible’ that would make Christianity collapse. You defeat yourself.

No I don't really, I belive that you have to interpet the bible litterarly if you're gonna read it at all since I can't belive that anybody who wrote those stories would want you to take it as representation and hidden messages as it would then only direct itself to the people who are clever egnouth to understand it, while the less clever people wouldn't understand the deeper meaning and they directed it to 'all of god's children'.

If you stop assuming that there's a life after this one, god exsists, we have a soul, heaven and hell is real and all that supernatural then think out atleast one reason to belive in it, if the bible didn't exsist, what would that argument be? I've asked several of my christian firends this and haven't gotten a real answer yet, but maybe you can give me one?

Originally Posted by de Silentio

You asked me to give you logical evidence that God exist, why is the burden of proof on me? I asked you to give me logical reasons to why God doesn’t exist.

Sigmund Freud also said that it where up the the belivers to prove gods exsistens not the other way around
It's very hard to prove that something doesn't exsist, while it's normally easy to prove that something DOES exsists, except when it comes to god apparently. I can claim that unicorns does exsist but they haven't been cought or seen yet because they have only showed themselves to a few people and them make some firend claim that they've also seen one and then say that it's up to you to prove that they doesn't exsist. How would you do that? While it's easy for me to prove that something does exsist as wood, stone, a animal, a person and so on.. Even things you can't see like different gases or such because they all have different effects on different things. While god, haven't been proven by any means yet and why do you think that is unless it's impossible because he isn't real?

Originally Posted by de Silentio

Your irrateness gives no credence to your argument, and frankly it makes you look stupid. Please don’t use profane language, it is unnecessary. I put together some arguments against your claims, but find that it is fruitless to argue with someone who so plainly has prejudices against what others say. If you would like my arguments, I will give them to you.

Yeah I'm sorry, I've allready been warned by Justin.. Sorry..
And of course I would love to hear your arguments

Originally Posted by de Silentio

As for the problem of evil, there are plenty of Theodicies that solve the problem. I am not intelligent enough to formulate them myself, so I won’t begin to act like I did, but there is a particularly good article that Alvin Plantiga made.

I'll see if I can find it then
But just to be clear, atleast in my religions course I'm taking right now our teacher told us that Theodicie where a problem and couldn't really be answerd to the favour of god.

Originally Posted by de Silentio

Why is my argument crap? Yet again, nothing you said against my argument relates to my argument, it relates to others arguments that you are using to generalize what I think.

Well somehow when you talk about something that would be beyond our knowledge and understanding it's hard to argue against it.. While it's also hard to argue for it since it doesn't matter what anybody says because it's beyond our understanding right? Nobody can have right in that argument because we can't even understand what it is we are argueing about because we can't understand "the plan" right? So it's a impossible to come to any conclusion because it's beyond our understanding...
That's a type of logic I wouldn't like to call logic...Because you can't make any argument for it either..

Originally Posted by de Silentio

And by the way, since you claim that Christians have no Facts that God does exist, please give me some Facts that he doesn’t exist.

As I said it's hard to prove that something doesn't exsist.. I can compare it to proving that something never happend in a court, and luckily, most lawsystems puts the weight on the accuser to lay out the proof instead of the other way around.. And that's the way you have see this debate to, It's gonna be hard for me to prove that something that doesn't exsist doesn't exsist, while it should be easy to prove that something that exsists exsists...
- I could bang on the bible but then you would probably just say something like "the bible is nothing more then a attempt to define god, but you can't define anything that's everything" or something like that atleast...
- But ofcourse I could also say that dinosaurs exsisted for longer ago then the bible claim that the earth was created, and then you would just say either the same argument as I just said that you probably would use about the bible or that he created them to and then killed them off because there wasn't a inteligent creature among them or something like that..
- Or I could say that there's proof of the evolution and then you would say that it doesn't matter because god created the creatures anyways..
- Or I could say that there's evil in the world and no loving god would allow that for his creatures but still, I've done that allready...
- Or i could ask you how you know that the christian god is the real one? Why can't it be buddah or some older one like Ra, Zeus or Oden?
- Or I could say that if there was a god, wouldn't he anounce his presence somehow to give people atleast a reason to belive in him?

[Justin]

Philosophy from the mouths of babes.

Wizzy, everything exists in the mind of man. For some, God exists, for others God does not. We ultimately create it in mind.

Each man has his own world that he creates within himself and how he sees and views his world is merely a reflection of himself. The controlling substance is in how man perceives life. If he perceives that there is a God and he perceives that he must attend Church and be a Christian, then the man has made that his reality. Likewise with any thing else. What may not be a reality for you is a reality for someone else who believes it into existence.

You can say or argue anything you want Wizzy. The bottom line is that we are creating heaven and hell, (if that's what you want to call it) every single day. We can't change the past and have absolutely no control over anything other than the way we perceive life to be. If you perceive it to be negative, then that perception becomes your reality. Likewise, if you perceive life to be good, that will also become your reality. It all starts in the heart and soul of each and every individual human being.

Accepting or rejecting God starts with accepting or rejecting oneself. Looking out and trying to find answers will lead man in all different directions. It's starts at home and it starts within the mind of each autonomous human being... the rest is beyond our control.

Seek ye within, the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Wizzy]

Originally Posted by Justin

Philosophy from the mouths of babes.

Wizzy, everything exists in the mind of man. For some, God exists, for others God does not. We ultimately create it in mind.

Each man has his own world that he creates within himself and how he sees and views his world is merely a reflection of himself. The controlling substance is in how man perceives life. If he perceives that there is a God and he perceives that he must attend Church and be a Christian, then the man has made that his reality. Likewise with any thing else. What may not be a reality for you is a reality for someone else who believes it into existence.

You can say or argue anything you want Wizzy. The bottom line is that we are creating heaven and hell, (if that's what you want to call it) every single day. We can't change the past and have absolutely no control over anything other than the way we perceive life to be. If you perceive it to be negative, then that perception becomes your reality. Likewise, if you perceive life to be good, that will also become your reality. It all starts in the heart and soul of each and every individual human being.

Accepting or rejecting God starts with accepting or rejecting oneself. Looking out and trying to find answers will lead man in all different directions. It's starts at home and it starts within the mind of each autonomous human being... the rest is beyond our control.

Seek ye within, the Kingdom of Heaven.

Justin I like your style man

Ofcourse everyman creates his own reality, I'm not argueing with that. But at the same time, the people in our society that talks to and search after invisible men are considerd to be crazy aren't they? Every man has his reality but there are still things that are real and not, such as materia and you can't deny that. So if something exsists or not is vital not only to the sanity of men, but also how we should see the world.

I understand that the reality you talk about is not the same reality as my example with materia, but it doesn't matter when it's simple fact that some things exsist and some don't, if you truly belive in something that can't be proven to be real, then I would like to claim that you're not a man of science and not a man of logic. I don't see any real difference between cults (both suicide and non-suicide once) and other organized religions such as christianity and islam other then how they express their belives, do you?

I belive that If you do belive that somebody that's all-mighty watches over you and make sure you're safe, you won't look after yourself and personally make sure that you are safe, in more ways then just your health if you understand what I mean.

And when I said heaven and hell I wasn't talking about a living heaven or hell, I was talking about the after-life heaven or hell because that's the only one that doesn't make any sense. A living heaven or hell is up to the person to decide and choose sure, just as I belive that you can choose your mood from day to day if you wish to. I'm not talking about your poetic belives here, I'm talking about the supernatural-beyond-our-inteligence belives, the once and isn't backed by any logic what so ever. Thus I asked the question: If the religions didn't exsist, if you've never been told about anything supernatural from god to superman, what reason would you have to start beliving (for real beliving) in any god?

[Justin]

Originally Posted by Wizzy

I understand that the reality you talk about is not the same reality as my example with materia, but it doesn't matter when it's simple fact that some things exsist and some don't, if you truly belive in something that can't be proven to be real, then I would like to claim that you're not a man of science and not a man of logic. I don't see any real difference between cults (both suicide and non-suicide once) and other organized religions such as christianity and islam other then how they express their belives, do you?

Nope. I'm with you on this. It's how they express their beliefs that becomes more of an issue. Instead of starting where people are and finding the common ground in all these things, people want to focus on the differences and then try to change the things they don't like. Most people start with where they expect others to be and when that happens, we end up fighting over who's right and who's wrong. It's at this point we've actually lost sight of the things we have in common and the focal point is turned towards the things we don't have in common.

Originally Posted by Wizzy

I belive that If you do belive that somebody that's all-mighty watches over you and make sure you're safe, you won't look after yourself and personally make sure that you are safe, in more ways then just your health if you understand what I mean.

I understand what you mean. That's the beauty of life... discovering what it really is. Our little time here in the physical sense of body is means very little in the spectrum of eternity. Our bodies are going to die just as others have died and gone before us. Eternally however, there is no death of the spirit or the energy which balances the entire Universe. I personally believe that man creates deities and if there were none, he'd create them anyways. Someone to keep us safe. Having greater powers out there is space relieves man of some of the accountability for his own thoughts and actions and provides a source that can be blamed or looked up to so to save us. Man would create it either way because physical man is seriously weak... however we are becoming more and more enlightened to the knowledge that when man works in harmony and balance together, they accomplish much more... and there's more accountability.

Originally Posted by Wizzy

And when I said heaven and hell I wasn't talking about a living heaven or hell, I was talking about the after-life heaven or hell because that's the only one that doesn't make any sense. A living heaven or hell is up to the person to decide and choose sure, just as I belive that you can choose your mood from day to day if you wish to. I'm not talking about your poetic belives here, I'm talking about the supernatural-beyond-our-inteligence belives, the once and isn't backed by any logic what so ever. Thus I asked the question: If the religions didn't exsist, if you've never been told about anything supernatural from god to superman, what reason would you have to start beliving (for real beliving) in any god?

Wizzy, you've been told there's an after-life of heaven or hell because your ancestors told their ancestors and their ancestors and all else. That comes back to your perception. This perception on this is currently controlled by things that you have learned outside of yourself and have been given or passed down through the centuries. This perception will literally create the ceiling above us. We are the living, creating, breathing and dieing force of this supernatural force you've mentioned. We are parts of one whole. It's not beyond our intelligence, it is our intelligence.

Back in the 60s and 70s if you'd have told someone that all the knowledge of mankind could fit in the palm of one man's hand, they'd have told you it's ridiculously impossible. Likewise if someone would have said that there will be a time when a man in the US can perform open-heart surgery successfully on a patient in China... they would have said you were crazy and it's impossible. At one time or other all of what's happening today was impossible and could never be done. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Man will someday realize the inherent genius within and cease building walls and edifices to separate humanity from the supernatural force present in all creation. Until that time, it's impossible if we believe it is.

What a wonderful age to grow up and evolve in.

[Wizzy]

Originally Posted by Justin

Nope. I'm with you on this. It's how they express their beliefs that becomes more of an issue. Instead of starting where people are and finding the common ground in all these things, people want to focus on the differences and then try to change the things they don't like. Most people start with where they expect others to be and when that happens, we end up fighting over who's right and who's wrong. It's at this point we've actually lost sight of the things we have in common and the focal point is turned towards the things we don't have in common.

As you said: I'm with you on this, when I read it i got to thinking of a song by "Less Than Jake" called "All my best friends are meatheads" and the lyrics goes as this:
Do you know about her strength in convictions
or how she puts all her faith in religion.
Did we take the time to really discover,
how little we know about each other.
As I said on my site man, racism is wrong but at the same time you have to be able to complain about anything about anybody without that person taking to to hard. People have to be able to get offended without passing laws and stuff like that to forbid it.. Thought you shouldn't be able to express hate violently... (god it feels like I miss-spell all the time..)

Originally Posted by Justin

I understand what you mean. That's the beauty of life... discovering what it really is. Our little time here in the physical sense of body is means very little in the spectrum of eternity. Our bodies are going to die just as others have died and gone before us. Eternally however, there is no death of the spirit or the energy which balances the entire Universe. I personally believe that man creates deities and if there were none, he'd create them anyways. Someone to keep us safe. Having greater powers out there is space relieves man of some of the accountability for his own thoughts and actions and provides a source that can be blamed or looked up to so to save us. Man would create it either way because physical man is seriously weak... however we are becoming more and more enlightened to the knowledge that when man works in harmony and balance together, they accomplish much more... and there's more accountability.

It's hard to understand if you're a beliver or not, not that it matter to much. But anyways I belive your basic thought about the function of the world seems to be reasonable but I don't really agree with what you said about what you said about there not beeing death in spirit and energy unless you mean in a non-supernatural way such as live on as energy amongs the once that you have tuched in life, then I can agree with you. And about dreaming up somebody that's greater then you that can guard and protect you, yes, nomather what people would still dream up some kind of god just from their fear for the real world as it is normally brutal and ruthless but also for the basic things that humans can't understand. We are smart egnouth to know that we're smart but not smart egnouth to know everything and that's a shame..

Originally Posted by Justin

Wizzy, you've been told there's an after-life of heaven or hell because your ancestors told their ancestors and their ancestors and all else. That comes back to your perception. This perception on this is currently controlled by things that you have learned outside of yourself and have been given or passed down through the centuries. This perception will literally create the ceiling above us. We are the living, creating, breathing and dieing force of this supernatural force you've mentioned. We are parts of one whole. It's not beyond our intelligence, it is our intelligence.

Ofcourse it's because we've been told that there's after-life heaven and hell, I personally don't belive in it as I think I've made pretty clear that I don't. And I agree, we have to stop seeing the world as "us and them", there isn't any "them", just an "us"..

Originally Posted by Justin

Back in the 60s and 70s if you'd have told someone that all the knowledge of mankind could fit in the palm of one man's hand, they'd have told you it's ridiculously impossible. Likewise if someone would have said that there will be a time when a man in the US can perform open-heart surgery successfully on a patient in China... they would have said you were crazy and it's impossible. At one time or other all of what's happening today was impossible and could never be done. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Ofcourse I know what you're getting at, that what we know today as impossible might not be tomorrow and I agree, we reach new hights constantly and people who comment on something that's impossible are often proven wrong but at the same time, if you don't bet something you can't win anything

Originally Posted by Justin

What a wonderful age to grow up and evolve in.

Ofcourse, but so has most previous once been to, what everybody need is something larger then themselves to live, fight and possibly die for, that's how you become a part of history and rememberd for a long time forward and that's atleast my goal in life