The Lighter Side of Lucifer

[Pongobongo]

I've seen a view threads that touched on "why evil is allowed to exist" or "how can Satan continues to live", etc. So here's an entire thread dedicated to everybody's favorite topic, "evil".

It seems to me that an all-powerful God should be able to dispatch a non-all-powerful fallen angel with a simple snap of his fingers. So why hasn't he after all this time? Simple, he needs him. That's right, God needs Satan, or rather Lucifer.

Sure, Lucifer challenged him for his throne, and turned half of Heaven against him. But he had a valid reason for doing so. He didn't do it out of hatred or jealousy, he simply wanted equal rights. And God realized that, eventually. He is a loving, forgiving God after all.

On top of that, God loves to test mankind. He himself is incapable of deceipt or temptation, but Lucifer isn't. So God sits back and let's Lucifer do his thing, weeding out the spiritually weak. Not to do them harm however, fallen though he may be, he is still an angel and servant of God.

Those who repent are forgiven, and those who are not are taken to Hell. There Lucifer watches as they spend their spiritual "time-out" until Judgement Day. At which time they are given one last chance to repent.

Now, that leads us to the grand finale. The "Judgement Day", "Armageddon", "End of Days", "The Second Coming", whatever you wish to call it. Regardless, I personally doubt it will end the way it does in The Book of Revelation.

Lucifer may be many things, but dumb isn't one of them. He tried to conquer Heaven with an army of angels and failed. Why on Earth (literally and figuratively) would he try again with mear mortals? Besides, the entire time leading up to this he has had only one thing on his mind: reconcile with God. They had a falling out, tempers were lost, words were exchanged, but in the end they're two of a kind. They have the best interests of Heaven and Earth at heart. More collegues with competing theories than Biblical foes.

And in the end it comes down to yin and yang. Without evil, good cannot be truly appreciated. Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but conversely every silver lining has a dark cloud. And besides you can't have a decent story with some conflict.

If it weren't for the the poor, sick, orphaned, and dying, there wouldn't have been a Mother Teresa.

[Aristoddler]

If you were to take script from the bible, you would find that the real test isn't about mankind being faithful, but about the struggle between god and satan.
Satan was given a certain period of time to try to prove his point to god, and when that time is over; god will toss him into a pit for a thousand years while he brings back all his loyal followers, but leave the bad guys dead.
These followers would not age, and they would lead perfect lives, according to proverb.
At the end of this 1,000 year reign, the devil would be freed to wreak havoc on earth for a period of time, where whoever decided to fall into his temptation would perish forever with satan at the end of it all.

Lucifer wanted equal rights?
He was created by god, and he knew it...how could any being that has spoken face to face with him know any different?
He wanted power equal to god, which was what ticked him off so much. God put mankind on the earth so they could live forever in a paradise, running around nekkid and playing their harmonicas. The only condition was that they worship him solely and not eat the fruit from one specific tree.


It must've been really good fruit to screw up that deal.
Live forever or....eat this fruit that probably tastes like a crabapple. Hmm. Tough one.

[boagie]

Pongobong,

Please define the term evil, is it simply a christian word inferring the violation of a gods will? If we have a definition it would avoid a great deal of confusion. Personally, the term as it is taken as a christian term, does not exist.

[Didymos Thomas]

Where to begin?

Sure, Lucifer challenged him for his throne, and turned half of Heaven against him. But he had a valid reason for doing so. He didn't do it out of hatred or jealousy, he simply wanted equal rights.

Any reason to suggest Satan wanted equal rights? Any suggestion of such a thing in scripture?

In the event that an argument is presented to support a 'yes' response to the above questions: how can God violate rights? If Satan defies God in pursuit of equal rights, God must be limiting someone's rights. However, if we take it for granted that God created the universe, anything with rights is the creation of God, and those rights are the gifts of God.

And God realized that, eventually. He is a loving, forgiving God after all.

Omnipotent beings do not tend to know things after non-omnipotent beings knows something; as a matter of fact, omnipotent beings tend to be the first to realize something.

But here you mention something worth noting - that God is loving and forgiving. Perhaps this is why God does not destroy the character Satan? Because he is loving? Just a thought to consider.

On top of that, God loves to test mankind. He himself is incapable of deceipt or temptation, but Lucifer isn't.

God does not use deceit to test mankind. No one was tricked into bringing their child to the sacrificial altar.

Though you are right in that Satan does tempt. From what I recall, that's about all he does; he tempts Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, he tempts Jesus with all the power of the world.

If it weren't for the the poor, sick, orphaned, and dying, there wouldn't have been a Mother Teresa.

Even without starving Indians, Mother Teresa would have been born (we can presume). More accurately, without the poor, sick, et al, Mother Teresa would have had a different role in life.

[saiboimushi]

Originally Posted by Pongobongo

On top of that, God loves to test mankind. He himself is incapable of deceipt or temptation, but Lucifer isn't. So God sits back and let's Lucifer do his thing, weeding out the spiritually weak. Not to do them harm however, fallen though he may be, he is still an angel and servant of God.

If God is The Omnipotent Creator, and evil exists, then it would seem that God both creates evil and allows evil to exist, therefore making Him the Sole Cause and Prime Advocate of evil. On the other hand, if God is not the cause of evil, and evil exists, then God must not be the cause of everything, i.e., He must not be God. So it appears that God is either a dude or the devil--at least according to these formulations.

However, if God is the cause of all that is real, but is not the cause of all that is unreal, is He still God? I would say yes, even though there are serious questions surrounding the whole real/unreal distinction.

BTW, WORK SUCKS. The word "school" comes from the Greek word for leisure--an etymological irony of the highest order. Plus I forgot to brush my teeth this morning, and to clean my glasses. Hypnogogic states are deleterious to Hygene.

[de_budding]

"The Lighter Side of Lucifer"
Thanks for the post! I have only been a member here for a few days now, but everything I read seems to echo my life and current thoughts. The current thought (or thought-style is more accurate) you have managed to read is that, evil is just an indication that good is still there, the lighter side of Lucifer indeed.

Let me elaborate... Please; while reading through some existentialism stuff I came across a quote to do with social responsibility. The quote was, "We can only lie because every one else endeavours to tell the truth" and that "immorality is to force others to observe a rule you wish to break". When it comes to morals (of which I make my own); to see them broken is a reminder they are still there and working. In the same sense that when one is sorely sad it is merely a reminder they were happy. ‘Yin and yang’ does seem to be everything and everywhere.

So when things get tough, from now on I surely will look for the lighter side of Lucifer. Thanks again,
Dan.

[de Silentio]

For some reason I've always had the problem of Satan being a being like you and I. I don't know why, and have absolutely no scripture to back it up. But I see the idea of Satan in the Bible and Church doctrine as more of a representation of the potential evil that resides in mans heart. The fall and Eve's temptation was the temptation of curiosity and free will, seemingly natural human (and animal for that matter) attributes.

From what I understand, Satan operates by coaxing man to perform acts that are in violation of God's will for man. How this is accomplished has puzzled me, and even one of the most intelligent pastors I know could not give me a answer that satisfied my hunger for understanding.

I just cannot see how Satan can be limited in power and still tempt me. In order for him to tempt me he would have to have God like powers. Manipulating physical circumstances, instilling thoughts, omnipresence, and most of all, it seems that he would be outside the realm of space-time like God.

[saiboimushi]

From what I understand, Satan operates by coaxing man to perform acts that are in violation of God's will for man. How this is accomplished has puzzled me, and even one of the most intelligent pastors I know could not give me a answer that satisfied my hunger for understanding.

The fact is that virtually no mortal on earth knows the answer you seek, yet there are millions who feel they deserve a place in the temple of God despite their ignorance. Marlowe's Machevil was the true Christian when he uttered the famous phrase, "there is no sin but ignorance." If we do not understand God, then who are we to say that we are holy? Does merely believing in God make us Christians? No! One must understand God, and demonstrate God, by doing good works which prove their faith. Everything else is vanity and hypocrisy--and I know I am guilty of plenty of that.

Many people are turned off by religious dogma because ... well ... it doesn't make any sense. Are they wrong to demand that the Truth be consistent, that it be accessible to everyone? No! In fact, they are the last that shall be first: they are the "the poor in spirit," those "who hunger and thirst after" understanding. The true philosophers.

And everyone who thinks they know what God is, but does not really know--they are the last

[Pongobongo]

Ok, I noticed a couple of points in your responses. None of which I believe to be incorrect, but more misinterpretation of my own original statements.

First, I knew upon writing this that not all of it was out of scripture. I did take some liberties with the details in order to make my point. Looking back that strategy, is better kept to daily life and not to this type of forum. For that I apologize.

However, I'm of the view that the Bible (scripture) is simply the beginning to an understanding of the Jewish/Christian God. Just like any other "textbook" you need to be able to extrapolate and expand upon it to better fit it to your surroundings, and in this case your personal spirituality. Religion is a very personal thing. Luckily that's where theology and philosophy can step in. If God is truly great than how dare we limit him to the words of a single book. But, I digress, and no I'm not preaching, just expressing.

That being said, I seem to recall a story in which Satan was jealous of not God, but man. That "in the beginning" there were only God and his angels. Then he created man and placed man above the angels. That's where I got the equal rights bit from. Lucifer was jealous of God's affection towards man. He simply wanted the angels, the original creation as it were, to be equal to man in God's eyes.

I do like your notion that Satan is more of a concept of evil than an actual being. It makes more sense to say that each of us knows right and wrong, and simply makes the decision one way or the other. No need for supernatural or spiritual influence there, just good old free will. This kind of evokes the notion of religion being more educational than actual. Keeps you getting up each morning, on the moral high road, and gives a "purpose" or "meaning" to your life so that you can sleep at night without fear of death keeping you awake. It fills the void, so to speak. But I will leave it at that to avoid crossing the line and offending anyone (which is very much NOT my intention).

[Pongobongo]

Originally Posted by boagie

Pongobong,

Please define the term evil, is it simply a christian word inferring the violation of a gods will? If we have a definition it would avoid a great deal of confusion. Personally, the term as it is taken as a christian term, does not exist.

I shall gladly do so, kind of. I prefer to not apply my definition of the word, but to allow it to mean what the read thinks it means. I know this can be a bit treacherous, but it does allow for an understanding in the "in your own words" sense.

But having read many a posting on this forum I see that many of you are literalists and need specifics. So specifics you shall have. In this case, by "evil" I mean all that is deemed inhumanely wrong. Acts which are beyond what we consider ourselves capable of, thus potential requiring some higher (lower?) influence.

For example anyone can snap and kill their neighbor , but for someone to calously wipe out an entire people that is "beyond" . For someone to punch the guy next to him at the bar, versus someone punching their child. Even then abuse to another human can generally be justified (if only by incorrect reasoning), but abuse to a "lower" lifeform such as a pet generally cannot.

Does this make sense to you sir? Or shall I elaborate further?