The Value of Freedom

[xris]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

Isn't it the right of the citizen to choose what he likes for breakfast. However, in this country we do have freedom of speech, the right to vote, and so on. Of course, within restrictions that do not impinge on the rights of others. All this is well-known. So you must think what I just wrote is wrong.

If you are satisfied with the freedom you have , I'm happy for you. I still say its an illusion. Take for instance lobbying, do you consider this bribery or a normal democratic method?

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by xris

If you are satisfied with the freedom you have , I'm happy for you. I still say its an illusion. Take for instance lobbying, do you consider this bribery or a normal democratic method?

No I don't. And if there is bribery, it is an abuse of lobbying, and should be stopped. And there is voter fraud, and that should be stopped too. And there is welfare fraud, that that should be stopped too.

[xris]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

No I don't. And if there is bribery, it is an abuse of lobbying, and should be stopped. And there is voter fraud, and that should be stopped too. And there is welfare fraud, that that should be stopped too.

So you see lobbying as an act of democratic freedom? I understand now how you imagine you have freedom.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by xris

So you see lobbying as an act of democratic freedom? I understand now how you imagine you have freedom.

Lobbying has its place in the political process. But not when it is abused. What has it to do with freedom?

[xris]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

Lobbying has its place in the political process. But not when it is abused. What has it to do with freedom?

By its nature it satisfies those with the money to influence government policy. If you think money has a place in determining government policy then I can understand your happiness.

[BrightNoon]

Lobbying cannot be stopped. The government can ban 'lobbyists' from working in the Capitol, but there is no way or reason in a free society to prevent individuals from having conversations with elected officials. The solution to the problem of de facto government by and for the corporations is much simpler and more elegant than some monstrous law that puts elected officials in a sanitized bubble in an effort to free them undue influence by certain parties. The solution is to abolish the powers of government that the corporations 'persuade' the politicians to use in their favor. Abolish all subsidies, simplify and make uniform the tax code, eliminate all federal regulation of private enterprise except insofar as that commerce crosses national bordersor concerns inter-state tarrifs (the real, much abused meaning of the interstate commerce clause), change the process by which governments contract with private parties, abolish the Federal Reserve, institute rules regarding former employees/investors of companies filling official positions whose power involves said companies, etc.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by BrightNoon

Lobbying cannot be stopped. The government can ban 'lobbyists' from working in the Capitol, but there is no way or reason in a free society to prevent individuals from having conversations with elected officials. The solution to the problem of de facto government by and for the corporations is much simpler and more elegant than some monstrous law that puts elected officials in a sanitized bubble in an effort to free them undue influence by certain parties. The solution is to abolish the powers of government that the corporations 'persuade' the politicians to use in their favor. Abolish all subsidies, simplify and make uniform the tax code, eliminate all federal regulation of private enterprise except insofar as that commerce crosses national bordersor concerns inter-state tarrifs (the real, much abused meaning of the interstate commerce clause), change the process by which governments contract with private parties, abolish the Federal Reserve, institute rules regarding former employees/investors of companies filling official positions whose power involves said companies, etc.

Called "freedom of assembly". I think it may even be in the Constitution. Some may have heard of it.

[xris]

Lobbying with the aid of agencies is the problem. Corporate bodies have unfair influence by the accepted system. 70,000 employed directly with the lobbying system must give any free society a sense of injustice. These are not minority interests trying to make their voice heard, its chemical, pharmaceuticals vying for contracts through a system that evolved to give the electorate a voice in government. Politicians love it, its their source of revenue for the next round of supposed free elections.

[BrightNoon]

Originally Posted by xris

Lobbying with the aid of agencies is the problem. Corporate bodies have unfair influence by the accepted system. 70,000 employed directly with the lobbying system must give any free society a sense of injustice. These are not minority interests trying to make their voice heard, its chemical, pharmaceuticals vying for contracts through a system that evolved to give the electorate a voice in government. Politicians love it, its their source of revenue for the next round of supposed free elections.

And if you banned registered federal lobbyists from calling on congressmen, do you think that would stop Raytheon or Goldman Sachs from peddling influence? No sir, instead of 70,000 lobbyists in Washington, you'd have 70,000 gloating around the favorite vacation spots and homes of the congressmen. It's impossible, and unjust, to deny people access to officials because of the nature of the persuation they're trying to affect.

As an analogy. Let's say a town wants to keep its public funds in a carboard box on the sidewalk outside city hall, but some guy keeps stealing it. Should the town hire a bunch of security guards to keep watch on the vulnerable box? No...they should put the box away and stop tempting the thieves.

Don't get rid of lobbyists, get rid of what they've come to obtain through lobbying - government favors. Remove the powers the government has to grant such favors.

It is not a coincidence that the number of lobbyists in Washington has grown in tandem with the scope and power of government.

[HexHammer]

Originally Posted by hue-man

Some people regard freedom as the ultimate political value, while others regard equality as being more valuable or equally as valuable as freedom. Why is it that some people value freedom with little to no constraints (anarchists, libertarians, etc) even when there are obvious negative externalities? Is it because of their will to power?

It's depending on which doctrines you have been raised with.

I may be speaking out of ignorence, but I belive in Japan they'r not so screamish about such western values.

It's all about group think.