The Diminishment of Freedom

[hue-man]

People on the right of politics are constantly talking about our freedom being diminished. This seems to be nothing more than paranoia, phobia, and distortion of facts. I still eat what I want to eat, drink what I want to drink, watch what I want to watch, say what I want to say, and have sex with who I want to have sex with without government persecution. Can someone please give me an example of a freedom that has been taken away from me, because I'm clearly not aware of one?

[josh0335]

USA Patriot Act. Not being told why you've been arrested, having no access to legal representation and being incarcerated indefnitely without trial seems to be a loss of freedom to me.

[hue-man]

Originally Posted by josh0335

USA Patriot Act. Not being told why you've been arrested, having no access to legal representation and being incarcerated indefnitely without trial seems to be a loss of freedom to me.

I am aware of the patriot act, but that has not affected me and the general population. There are rare cases where the wrong person was accused of being a terrorist, but more often than not, the person accused is involved with terrorist networks. The ironic thing is that this bill was pushed by a republican president.

Is this all that you can give me?

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by hue-man

People on the right of politics are constantly talking about our freedom being diminished. This seems to be nothing more than paranoia, phobia, and distortion of facts. I still eat what I want to eat, drink what I want to drink, watch what I want to watch, say what I want to say, and have sex with who I want to have sex with without government persecution. Can someone please give me an example of a freedom that has been taken away from me, because I'm clearly not aware of one?

Of course. The freedom to use my money as I please, rather than it being confiscated by the government to give to those I may not choose to give it to. It is called "the redistribution of income".

[josh0335]

Originally Posted by hue-man

I am aware of the patriot act, but that has not affected me and the general population. There are rare cases where the wrong person was accused of being a terrorist, but more often than not, the person accused is involved with terrorist networks. The ironic thing is that this bill was pushed by a republican president.

Is this all that you can give me?

Well, I live in the UK so I'm not the best person to challenge you on what you say. But it is the erosion of liberties that everyone should be afraid of. The Patriot Act is just one example of where freedoms are taken away which only effect a very small number of people. But once the door is open, it is very rarely closed. Perhaps your freedoms will not be further eroded in your life, but that's not to say future governments won't build on these initial steps and oppress your children.

[xris]

How fear can bring out the very worst in us all. Attempting to defend without attacking the very cause you are attempting to maintain. Its an inaccuracy that recently freedoms have been withdrawn, we have in fact become more open to our errors. The British have softened their military approach with their counter insurgency methods. I was trained as a counter insurgent soldier and I would have acted with much more severity to any insurgent captured by us in the 1960s. It would have been an instant trial and execution. We have a long way to go to be truly free but not nearly as far as many countries in other parts of the world. Everything is relative.

[hue-man]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

Of course. The freedom to use my money as I please, rather than it being confiscated by the government to give to those I may not choose to give it to. It is called "the redistribution of income".

Well taxation is the redistribution of income by its very definition. Where the income is redistributed is another matter. An anarchist would argue that they don't have the freedom to keep all of their money and that they should have the freedom because they don't believe in the state.

---------- Post added 11-14-2009 at 02:23 PM ----------

Originally Posted by josh0335

Well, I live in the UK so I'm not the best person to challenge you on what you say. But it is the erosion of liberties that everyone should be afraid of. The Patriot Act is just one example of where freedoms are taken away which only effect a very small number of people. But once the door is open, it is very rarely closed. Perhaps your freedoms will not be further eroded in your life, but that's not to say future governments won't build on these initial steps and oppress your children.

Some degree of suspicion of the state is healthy, but it must be kept in a rational perspective. With or without the Patriot Act, we are always under some level of threat from state tyranny and authoritarianism as long as the state exists.

[josh0335]

Originally Posted by hue-man

Some degree of suspicion of the state is healthy, but it must be kept in a rational perspective. With or without the Patriot Act, we are always under some level of threat from state tyranny and authoritarianism as long as the state exists.

So you're okay with the fact that potentially you could be detained and held indefinitely without trial? Is this the kind of rational perspective you're talking about?

[hue-man]

Originally Posted by josh0335

So you're okay with the fact that potentially you could be detained and held indefinitely without trial? Is this the kind of rational perspective you're talking about?

No I'm not OK with the fact that I could potentially be detained and held indefinitely without trial . . . lol. I'm also not OK with the fact that I could be arrested and thrown in jail for the rest of my life for committing a felony crime. However, I don't foresee myself becoming a terrorist or committing felony crimes, so I don't worry about it.

[josh0335]

Originally Posted by hue-man

No I'm not OK with the fact that I could potentially be detained and held indefinitely without trial . . . lol. I'm also not OK with the fact that I could be arrested and thrown in jail for the rest of my life for committing a felony crime. However, I don't foresee myself becoming a terrorist or committing felony crimes, so I don't worry about it.

Sure, but you've never heard of miscarriage of justice? The whole point of a trial is to be able to clear your name if you've been wrongfully accused of something. So the fact that you have no intention of being a terrorist is irrelevant. You could be detained wrongfully and you would not have the freedom/right to clear your name. You don't worry about it because you probably don't fit the profile. But one day you might become friends with someone who does, and maybe then you will worry about it.