Socialism (Moved from Grapes of Wrath)

[xris]

Ive seen state ownership and i have suffered the consequence of it being sold off cheap.Ask any uk citizen about the sale of state assets and how it has cost everyone of us dearly. Ask any UK citizen if he would prefer having his own health insurance or be served by the national health.As long as there is not too much government interference in state owned companies, they serve the public well not a few demanding share holders.If communism had not shown its ugly face in the 1950s, europe in my opinion would be a socialist European state.
Capitalism has been shown to fail on so many fronts, maybe socialism is not the complete answer but if we dont learn that systems need to be radically altered and personal consumer greed controlled, we are doomed.

[EmperorNero]

When has capitalism failed?
It only fails if it is not allowed to work.

[xris]

Originally Posted by NoEmperorNero

When has capitalism failed?
It only fails if it is not allowed to work.

When has capitalism succeeded?it struggles from one disaster to the next.When any system has greed as a necessity for its survival it can never be right for the majority.Till capitalism is throttled, we only can look forward to further disasters and destruction of our natural resources.I prefer a social conscience to a greed driven economy and i think morally i have the high ground.

[Krobmotoriker]

Hey guys, what do you exactly mean with modern socialist tendences ? Do you mean that the capitalistic state, should get more social(rick pay a bit more taxes etc and poor a bit less) or are you talking about replacing the current system through a totally new socialism system ? Because I think in a socialism system there would'nt be anything such like grades in school, cause you don't need to select your kids in the different social classes(i mean,that's the only thing grades are good for), there exist just one more social class...

[EmperorNero]

Dear xris, what do you think about this:

What you are advocating is being social - as in helping each others out when we need it.
I think that is a great notion. For example in the form of private charity.
If you want the government to take over this role, that is socialism.
It will then force the citizens to be social - hence socialism.
I do believe that is wrong. Becsuse it means taking the money if individuals, also it means more government control.

---------- Post added at 01:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Krobmotoriker

Hey guys, what do you exactly mean with modern socialist tendences ? Do you mean that the capitalistic state, should get more social(rick pay a bit more taxes etc and poor a bit less) or are you talking about replacing the current system through a totally new socialism system ? Because I think in a socialism system there would'nt be anything such like grades in school, cause you don't need to select your kids in the different social classes(i mean,that's the only thing grades are good for), there exist just one more social class...

I am opposed to all that you mentioned.
And grades are good for measuring and encouraging effort.
You use that word classless to broad. It does not mean that everybody is that same, just that there are no classes.

[Krobmotoriker]

What perplexes me is, that in a grade of school, no matter how much they all work and learn, they will always selected in better and worse students and this sucks i think. Isn't it possible to teach kids something without judging them ? This way nevertheless how much everyone pushes himself, anyone will be the looser. Same in working life after school.
The grades have also an other effect, the students don't care anymore for the content they got teached in school, they care primary for the grades and thats not what it should be like, I think.

[xris]

The proposal that the poor live off handouts from the poor is why socialism became the moral answer to exploitation of workers in Victorian times.I cant see how you can say that its ok for the rich to use their power for higher wages but not allow the poor not to use their power.How do you differentiate between a shop worker and a plumber or dentist and a doctor.If society can say one person is worth more than another ,ill ask how.Why is it a professor in university gets so much less than a news reader?
The only way you can have a fair society is to cushion those who have the disability to earn sufficient money to survive by taxing those who have that much more.Its not about education or effort its about societies anomalies in income being addressed by a just tax system.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by Krobmotoriker

What perplexes me is, that in a grade of school, no matter how much they all work and learn, they will always selected in better and worse students and this sucks i think. Isn't it possible to teach kids something without judging them ? This way nevertheless how much everyone pushes himself, anyone will be the looser.

Well, we grade kids on how much they learn, so as for your first sentence I don't really understand it.
And we don't judge the kids, but their performance, so I don't see anything wrong with that.
We can teach without judging, and I think we do that a lot.
It's just that giving a grade at the end of the quarter is the best way to measure - and encourage -
I salute you, because you found a perfect metaphor for the whole debate.
I just think that there is less incentive to learn if not for a better grade or pay. - But I'm a bit of a grade-nazi.

[xris]

Originally Posted by NoEmperorNero

Well, we grade kids on how much they learn, so as for your first sentence I don't really understand it.
And we don't judge the kids, but their performance, so I don't see anything wrong with that.
We can teach without judging, and I think we do that a lot.
It's just that giving a grade at the end of the quarter is the best way to measure - and encourage -
I salute you, because you found a perfect metaphor for the whole debate.
I just think that there is less incentive to learn if not for a better grade or pay. - But I'm a bit of a grade-nazi.

Education is not taxed, its not down to what degree you obtain, its down to the wage you earn..A divvy with a guitar can earn millions and not have any education..Those smileys are back you despised..

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by xris

Education is not taxed, its not down to what degree you obtain, its down to the wage you earn..A divvy with a guitar can earn millions and not have any education..Those smileys are back you despised..

Yes, of course.
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