Socialism (Moved from Grapes of Wrath)

[Yogi DMT]

Sorry but i'm not exactly sure what you mean.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by Yogi DMT

Sorry but i'm not exactly sure what you mean.

You said in a capitalist society the economy depends on people to be honest.
But a true capitalist government is supposed to restrict fraud and "dishonesty".

---------- Post added at 01:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 PM ----------

@ Mr. Fight the Power:

Originally Posted by Mr. Fight the Power

Because profit from capital can be explained by the forbearance of satisfaction.

All right, I get time preference. Since the value he creates is slippery to pinpoint, what is it that determines the fair wage of the worker?
(Both fair to the laborer and the factory owner.)

---------- Post added at 01:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 PM ----------

@ xris:

YouTube - Cartoon predicts the future 50 years ago. This is amazing insight!

[Mr. Fight the Power]

Originally Posted by EmperorNero

All right, I get time preference. Since the value he creates is slippery to pinpoint, what is it that determines the fair wage of the worker?
(Both fair to the laborer and the factory owner.)

We cannot judge fairness and justice by an end state because there simply is no objective measurement or comparison. Socialism has long employed labor theories of value seeking to explain why the end state of capitalism is unjust; Marx invented the concept of socially-necessary labor time which unsurprisingly he could not come close to showing in any formal economic manner.

Because of the subjective nature of value, we must focus not on what everything is presently valued at, but on how the valuation is made. To achieve fairness, we must have individuals freely applying their own values to economic goods and interacting on a market system. As I said in another post, freedom is an unassailable position because a free man cannot complain of mistreatment, because he is only subject to his own will.

Very briefly, only the worker can truly calculate whether his wage is fair or not.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by Mr. Fight the Power

Very briefly, only the worker can truly calculate whether his wage is fair or not.

I agree. The problem is that "the rich company owners" through their influence in politics can create a situation where some of the population is "in poverty" and hence the laborer is forced to accept a low wage for lack of alternative.

[Mr. Fight the Power]

Originally Posted by EmperorNero

I agree. The problem is that "the rich company owners" through their influence in politics can create a situation where some of the population is "in poverty" and hence the laborer is forced to accept a low wage for lack of alternative.

Exactly.

There is a great deal of libertarian (both capitalist and socialist) that deals with the manner in which government intervention has long been a corporatist (note: corporatism was Mussolini's preferred term for fascism) movement that stagnates social mobility.

Basically the political and economic elite appoint themselves as shepherds to the masses.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by Mr. Fight the Power

Exactly.

There is a great deal of libertarian (both capitalist and socialist) that deals with the manner in which government intervention has long been a corporatist (note: corporatism was Mussolini's preferred term for fascism) movement that stagnates social mobility.

Basically the political and economic elite appoint themselves as shepherds to the masses.

So we are stuck with an eternal pendulum swinging fourth and back between laborer exploitation and untenable overpaying.

Great. Instead of banding together to abolish class warfare, the masses fight for greater government control, supposedly to strengthen their side in the class warfare.
All the while the big guy is forced to fight for suppressing wages in the class struggle. Which is his short-term gain, but dooms us all long-term.

[Mr. Fight the Power]

Originally Posted by EmperorNero

So we are stuck with an eternal pendulum swinging fourth and back between laborer exploitation and untenable overpaying.

Great. Instead of banding together to abolish class warfare, the masses fight for greater government control, supposedly to strengthen their side in the class warfare.
All the while the big guy is forced to fight for suppressing wages in the class struggle. Which is his short-term gain, but dooms us all long-term.

I am firmly convinced that while propaganda spewers may win short-term battles, the inherent mutual benefit of a market society will win out in the end simply because of the memetics of good ideas.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by Mr. Fight the Power

I am firmly convinced that while propaganda spewers may win short-term battles, the inherent mutual benefit of a market society will win out in the end simply because of the memetics of good ideas.

I'm not convinced of that. People are stupid. Ech...

All I know is I got to hurry building my off-grid walled compound.

Edit: Hey, look at your post-count.

[xris]

A free market economy with socialist safeguards is a formula for success in my opinion. America has never tried a true socialist free market economy, only a restricted trade capitalist system for the last 300 years.Therefor no one can say a socialist base economy could not work for certain.
Freedom to pursue your ambitions without harming others and with an assurance that we treat our least with respect.
I think the next four years may point America in that direction and then history can judge its influence.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by xris

A free market economy with socialist safeguards is a formula for success in my opinion.

I agree.
What do you mean by social safeguards? If you mean free education, medical care, security and protection of individual property, we are on the same page.

But I have to point out that this is not really socialism. It's really the basis for free market capitalism.