Socialism (Moved from Grapes of Wrath)

[Ultracrepidarian]

Word and deed, yes. But slavery is not consistent with the word Capitalism. Why attribute any wrong done out of want for material wealth to Capitalism? That Capitalism encourages greed for the almighty dollar ahead of the freedom of individuals is a most perverse slander against a philosophy.

Capitalism recognizes the right to keep earned individual income.
If you are to blame the philosophy for everything man does wrong in pursuit of income, you must also praise it for everything he does right in said pursuit.
To do this is senseless, since Capitalism is not the pursuit of income. It is a philosophy which has as one of its implications, the right to keep what you earn.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by xris

If it was implemented by a capitalist government it would loose support from its main source of income.The system encourages unfair advantages for corporate business.Look at the cigarette industry why is it not taxed into oblivion ?Look at the arms industry and see how it exploits by lobbying the influential in congress and our parliament.70,000 lobbyists make a living in Washington, is that a good sign of government operating for the people or for the corporate businesses that can afford to employ them.A determined capitalist government would cease to be what it claims.It puts a charade of pretended morals to appease the few who protest.

So you want a government that has the power of restricting unfairness.
What stops that government from granting special rules for the rich?

[xris]

Originally Posted by Ultracrepidarian

Word and deed, yes. But slavery is not consistent with the word Capitalism. Why attribute any wrong done out of want for material wealth to Capitalism? That Capitalism encourages greed for the almighty dollar ahead of the freedom of individuals is a most perverse slander against a philosophy.

Capitalism recognizes the right to keep earned individual income.
If you are to blame the philosophy for everything man does wrong in pursuit of income, you must also praise it for everything he does right in said pursuit.
To do this is senseless, since Capitalism is not the pursuit of income. It is a philosophy which has as one of its implications, the right to keep what you earn.

So it is saviour of man, it can do no evil.If you think capitalism is described by the allowance to keep what you have earned and that alone then what is it that allows exploitation in a capitalist system? A fault of those who administer this system ? Tell me the benefits and what if any are its faults in your opinion, please...

[Mr. Fight the Power]

Originally Posted by xris

well sir your dog eat dog world of the best survives and the lowest are left to starve is my idea of the worst form of civilisation man could conceive of.It makes no consideration of the weak the disabled or the mentally ill.It admires the best and condemns the least.Yes i do take the high road and you can not deny it.We left Anarchy behind when we deserted tribalism and made friends with our neighbours.

Exactly, you treat men as dogs needing to be leashed.

A true socialist recognizes the humanity in people.

My system makes no consideration for any, and it certainly doesn't admire one group over another.

Finally, you claim the moral high ground because you are firmly convinced in your ability to be final arbiter of right and wrong.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by Mr. Fight the Power

Finally, you claim the moral high ground because you are firmly convinced in your ability to be final arbiter of right and wrong.

That's my problem with the left. "I have the moral high ground because I think I can tell other people they should act more morally."



It's old authoritarianism in a new bottle.

[BrightNoon]

Originally Posted by Robespierre

What is the aim we want to achieve? The peaceful enjoyment of liberty and equality; the reign of that eternal justice whose laws are engraved not in stone and marble, but in the hearts of all men, even in the heart of the slave who forgets them or of the tyrant who disowns them. We want a state of affairs where all despicable and cruel passions are unknown, and all kind and generous passions are aroused by the laws

The rule of virtue is like ‘dictatorship of the proletariat: ‘meaningless rhetorical drivel. The only way that basic human nature, such as the tendency to hold one’s own desires in higher regard than those of others, is to beat humanity down with brute force. Is that virtuous? Do we remember how Robespierre’s noble vision of a virtuous society turned out? I believe they had to invent a new machine to decapitate people because they couldn’t sharpen the swords fast enough.

Originally Posted by Xris

The system encourages unfair advantages for corporate business. Look at the cigarette industry why is it not taxed into oblivion?

The American system does grant special privileges to certain corporations, in that regulations, subsidies and tax codes are designed to do exactly that. However, this system is not even remotely a capitalist system. In a capitalist system, there would be no regulation, no subsidies and no complex tax code for the corporations to lobby to government to design for their advantage.

Look at the arms industry and see how it exploits by lobbying the influential in congress and our parliament.70,000 lobbyists make a living in Washington, is that a good sign of government operating for the people or for the corporate businesses that can afford to employ them.

If the government had no authority to intervene in the economy with subsidies, regulation, etc., what would the lobbyists ask the government to do? The magnitude of lobbying in Washington is directly related to the amount of power the government usurps.

Avarice is a sin and it cannot be fed by a system that supports it.

Who are you to dictate morality to me or anyone else? Write a book, start a talk radio show, hand out pamphlets, but don’t convince the government to enforce your version of morality with the brute force of the police.

We fight wars to advance democracy but mention oil and we turn the other cheek.We hate communism but we enjoy their products.We hate the dictator killing his citizens but we sell him guns.

1) The oil companies have their favored position because there is no free market; they persuade the government to use its interventionist power to give them advantages, and sometimes even to go to war to defend their interests. It has nothing to do with free market capitalism. 2) The military-industrial complex uses the government’s interventionist power to advance its interests. It has NOTHING to do with capitalism. In fact, this particular issue doesn’t even have much to do with economics; it’s more a question of foreign policy. However, insofar as foreign policy is created by corporate lobbyist and think tanks and then fed to the government, this is product of socialism, not the free market; i.e. in a free market system, the government doesn’t have much to give the corporations, and thus isn’t so bound to their interests.

Originally Posted by Mr. Fight the Power

Exactly, you treat men as dogs needing to be leashed.

A true socialist recognizes the humanity in people.

My system makes no consideration for any, and it certainly doesn't admire one group over another.

Finally, you claim the moral high ground because you are firmly convinced in your ability to be final arbiter of right and wrong.

I agree. There is nothing less tolerant than this new age 'tolerance' and 'diversity' doctrine. Xris wants a divine ant hill.

[xris]

Originally Posted by Mr. Fight the Power

Exactly, you treat men as dogs needing to be leashed.

A true socialist recognizes the humanity in people.

My system makes no consideration for any, and it certainly doesn't admire one group over another.

Finally, you claim the moral high ground because you are firmly convinced in your ability to be final arbiter of right and wrong.

Its you that has been judgemental about my personal views.When did i say men should be leashed like dogs,poetic nonsense.
Anarchy is by the general accepted view, tribal and cares little for those who cant survive.Its jungle politics and an extension of capitalism without government intervention to its excesses.
I recognise what humanity is capable of ,history is littered with examples thats why advocate a social conscience approach.

---------- Post added at 04:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 AM ----------

Originally Posted by BrightNoon

The rule of virtue is like ‘dictatorship of the proletariat: ‘meaningless rhetorical drivel. The only way that basic human nature, such as the tendency to hold one’s own desires in higher regard than those of others, is to beat humanity down with brute force. Is that virtuous? Do we remember how Robespierre’s noble vision of a virtuous society turned out? I believe they had to invent a new machine to decapitate people because they couldn’t sharpen the swords fast enough.



The American system does grant special privileges to certain corporations, in that regulations, subsidies and tax codes are designed to do exactly that. However, this system is not even remotely a capitalist system. In a capitalist system, there would be no regulation, no subsidies and no complex tax code for the corporations to lobby to government to design for their advantage.



If the government had no authority to intervene in the economy with subsidies, regulation, etc., what would the lobbyists ask the government to do? The magnitude of lobbying in Washington is directly related to the amount of power the government usurps.



Who are you to dictate morality to me or anyone else? Write a book, start a talk radio show, hand out pamphlets, but don’t convince the government to enforce your version of morality with the brute force of the police.



1) The oil companies have their favored position because there is no free market; they persuade the government to use its interventionist power to give them advantages, and sometimes even to go to war to defend their interests. It has nothing to do with free market capitalism. 2) The military-industrial complex uses the government’s interventionist power to advance its interests. It has NOTHING to do with capitalism. In fact, this particular issue doesn’t even have much to do with economics; it’s more a question of foreign policy. However, insofar as foreign policy is created by corporate lobbyist and think tanks and then fed to the government, this is product of socialism, not the free market; i.e. in a free market system, the government doesn’t have much to give the corporations, and thus isn’t so bound to their interests.



I agree. There is nothing less tolerant than this new age 'tolerance' and 'diversity' doctrine. Xris wants a divine ant hill.

You give the US economy as an example of socialism and it does not represent capitalism at all.Well what can i say? So you can point to examples of true socialism and condemn its value but not this wonderful Utopian capitalist wonderland because no examples exist.It reminds me so much of that fictional land of never never.
You sound like a politician prone to making unsubstantiated claims about another's politics without questioning the details.Poetic analogies for effect and your admirers applause.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by xris

Its you that has been judgemental about my personal views.When did i say men should be leashed like dogs,poetic nonsense.
Anarchy is by the general accepted view, tribal and cares little for those who cant survive.Its jungle politics and an extension of capitalism without government intervention to its excesses.
I recognise what humanity is capable of ,history is littered with examples thats why advocate a social conscience approach.

---------- Post added at 04:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 AM ----------

You give the US economy as an example of socialism and it does not represent capitalism at all.Well what can i say? So you can point to examples of true socialism and condemn its value but not this wonderful Utopian capitalist wonderland because no examples exist.It reminds me so much of that fictional land of never never.
You sound like a politician prone to making unsubstantiated claims about another's politics without questioning the details.Poetic analogies for effect and your admirers applause.

I wasted too much energy trying to enlighten you to give up now. For crying out loud, at least try to let the other view in. Don't be a bot. What is the purpose of keeping your sacred opinion at all cost? You don't have to abolish your morales, just accept facts, or respond to them. Bart of learning is moving on to a better explanation when more information comes up. That's what your idol scientists do, they move away from their theories when facts make those theories unlikely. Seriously, explain this:
- You dislike government giving special privileges to corporations, but you advocate the government giving special privileges.
- Fine, maybe true capitalism is a fictional utopia. We should try to get as close as possible. But you are advocating moving away from that.
- Blaming capitalism for greed is a bit like blaming trees for fires. So should we cut down all trees?

[xris]

Originally Posted by EmperorNero

I wasted too much energy trying to enlighten you to give up now. For crying out loud, at least try to let the other view in. Don't be a bot. What is the purpose of keeping your sacred opinion at all cost? You don't have to abolish your morales, just accept facts, or respond to them. Bart of learning is moving on to a better explanation when more information comes up. That's what your idol scientists do, they move away from their theories when facts make those theories unlikely. Seriously, explain this:
- You dislike government giving special privileges to corporations, but you advocate the government giving special privileges.
- Fine, maybe true capitalism is a fictional utopia. We should try to get as close as possible. But you are advocating moving away from that.
- Blaming capitalism for greed is a bit like blaming trees for fires. So should we cut down all trees?

You don't get it do you? capitalism is the fire, its not the trees.Its the principles, not human nature,its not governments, its the principles of a capitalist society that i cant abide.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by xris

You don't get it do you? capitalism is the fire, its not the trees.Its the principles, not human nature,its not governments, its the principles of a capitalist society that i cant abide.

So you want to abolish fires? How are you going to do that?

So you wish to rid humanity of greed? How will you do that?