Socialism (Moved from Grapes of Wrath)

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by xris

When does socialism punish kids for getting better grades, are you really being serious?

You will pay a higher tax rate for being more productive.
You will get money for being unproductive.

Originally Posted by xris

Why should the majority of people who fall below the level of a certain income be forced to pay taxes at a higher rate than those who are above that rate.

Not higher. The same.

Originally Posted by xris

The state does not redistribute income, it taxes those who earn and helps those who are below a certain income.

Which is exactly what redistributing income means.

Originally Posted by xris

We are not talking about scroungers or the lazy but honest hard working folk who by circumstance or even greed by those who have succeeded, fallen on hard times, they need for humanities sake for society to aid their recovery.

But that's not what actually happens, and that's not what socialists propose.
What socialism mostly does is giving money to those that don't deserve it.

[xris]

I think your ingrained views on socialism are distorted and your grasp of the tax systems is a bit blinkered.How can you have a rate of tax that comes into effect when you earn a certain amount then say it only applies to those who are above that rate.With your accounting everyone would pay more, the rich and the poor.Tax does not apply to the educated it applies to everyone, a brick layer on X amount pays the same as librarian on X amount.I think your confused.The principles of socialism is what we are debating, not its failures, as you know with the fall in grace of the banking system not even your wonderful republican world is perfect.

[EmperorNero]

We have to disagree as we have gone off topic far enough and this is not a politics forum.
You simply state contradictions, and frankly you are wrong.
I was referring to regressive taxing, not anything else.

[xris]

Originally Posted by NoEmperorNero

We have to disagree as we have gone off topic far enough and this is not a politics forum.
You simply state contradictions, and frankly you are wrong.
I was referring to regressive taxing, not anything else.

Oh no you made more of it than that , you concluded that a social view was being expressed in a work of literature that you found somehow offensive.You cant say I make contradictions or i am wrong and not point them out..Smiley faces are on the way out i believe by demand.

[EmperorNero]

I didn't find The Grapes of Wrath offensive, I quite liked it.
I pointed out that a socialist view was expressed, which certainly is justified in the context of the book.
I do believe that there has been progress since the time depicted in the book.
I am fine with creating equality of opportunity and helping those, that fell on a hard time.

You stated that income redistribution is not taxing those who earn and giving it to others.
I call that a contradiction. I like to know what else income redistribution in your view is.
And then you somehow equated not progressively taxing with regressively taxing.

Progressive taxing - taxing higher income at a higher rate - is in my view unfair.
It is taking more from someone because the person is productive. I called that punishing bad behaviour.
An an analogy, it is like giving your child a higher reward for a worse grade.

My utopia of a free country is one that allows it's citizen to keep the fruit of ones work.
Most socialist programs these days don't advance equality of opportunity.
They merely takes from those that have and gives to those that don't have.
The main purpose is for politicians to get votes from those who receive the money.
It seems to me like an advanced system of bribery.

[xris]

Originally Posted by NoEmperorNero

I didn't find The Grapes of Wrath offensive, I quite liked it.
I pointed out that a socialist view was expressed, which certainly is justified in the context of the book.
I do believe that there has been progress since the time depicted in the book.
I am fine with creating equality of opportunity and helping those, that fell on a hard time.

You stated that income redistribution is not taxing those who earn and giving it to others.
I call that a contradiction. I like to know what else income redistribution in your view is.
And then you somehow equated not progressively taxing with regressively taxing.

Progressive taxing - taxing higher income at a higher rate - is in my view unfair.
It is taking more from someone because the person is productive. I called that punishing bad behaviour.
An an analogy, it is like giving your child a higher reward for a worse grade.

My utopia of a free country is one that allows it's citizen to keep the fruit of ones work.
Most socialist programs these days don't advance equality of opportunity.
They merely takes from those that have and gives to those that don't have.
The main purpose is for politicians to get votes from those who receive the money.
It seems to me like an advanced system of bribery.

You obviously have no idea of socialist principles, you are referring to communist ideology not a social community.You are assuming that all the overtly rich are some wonderful examples of work maketh the man.Why dont you consider that no one makes excessive amounts of money by just their work ethics.When does exploitation of the system become crude and unacceptable.When does the fact that by using the system the multinational avoids its tax commitment.If a working man is earning just enough to live on , should he be taxed at the same basic rate as a millionaire ? Sorry but your views in my opinion come from a blinkered and ill thought out gut reaction.

[EmperorNero]

"The trouble with socialism is it runs out of people to steal from." - Vladimir Putin (To my knowledge)

I confuse socialism with communism? Would you shorty define socialism and communism for the sake of the argument?

For some reason taxing the middle class is always excused with the existence of super-rich multinationals.
If you have a problem with exploitation of the system, try to prevent exploitation of the system.

And how can you generalise on the method of how "the rich" made their money?
So we as a society can decide that they all made their money unfairly and don't deserve it.
Okay.

[xris]

Originally Posted by NoEmperorNero

"The trouble with socialism is it runs out of people to steal from." - Vladimir Putin (To my knowledge)

I confuse socialism with communism? Would you shorty define socialism and communism for the sake of the argument?

For some reason taxing the middle class is always excused with the existence of super-rich multinationals.
If you have a problem with exploitation of the system, try to prevent exploitation of the system.

And how can you generalise on the method of how "the rich" made their money?
So we as a society can decide that they all made their money unfairly and don't deserve it.
Okay.

Taking quotes from a gangster does not do your credibilty any good.Look at communist states and a modern socialist governments to define the difference or wickie it like most others do.
When have you seen the middle classes being exploited by the working class? do me a favour.My dentist drives three cars every one worth six times more than my Nissan .I dont deny him his exploitation of the system but dont say he does no need to invest in the society that allows him these excesses.Oh i hear you, everyone could be a dentist, not so if you have a background not encouraging or allowing you this advantage.I can point to a thousand ways conglomerates exploit their position and abuse their power.In america 70,000 are employed exploiting the political jungle they call lobbying.Why do you think these companies spend so much money pampering our politicians? When your middle class bankers become unemployed do they then become socialists or do they starve for their politics..

[EmperorNero]

You were claiming I am referring to communist ideology instead of socialist principles.
I ask you to back that up instead of just telling me to look it up, because I think you are wrong, sir.
How is what I was referring to not socialist, but communist?

[xris]

Originally Posted by NoEmperorNero

You were claiming I am referring to communist ideology instead of socialist principles.
I ask you to back that up instead of just telling me to look it up, because I think you are wrong, sir.
How is what I was referring to not socialist, but communist?

So i will ask you is there a socialist government in the uk and how does it compare to your views on socialism and your historic views on communist russia or china...???????Do you think the american administration has a socialist agenda? Its these views that encouraged the McCarthy witch hunts, i hoped certain individuals of education would be better informed.