Socialism (Moved from Grapes of Wrath)

[Khethil]

Originally Posted by GoshisDead

Would screaming "get a room!" help end this thread? I really doubt there is a credible socialist yardstick.

Here, here (of course, by posting I've just pushed the thread one more tick - sorry bout that). Still, I've never understood the malevolence behind this or that political or economic label. If it makes sense; if it's the right thing to do at the right time, who cares what label it might bear?

I've voted democrat as often as I've voted republican and abhor the schism those two labels have wrought. From the personality analysis and viewpoint surveys I've taken, I'm about as liberal as I am conservative. Similarly, I see capitalism as having as much potential for damage as socialism. So... why do we hang our hats on these labels and defend them to the death?

Any idea, decision or concept should be thought through to its logical permutation; weighing the likely benefits against the likely negative effects. The instant we carry the banner of "this" or "that" orientation, we don horse-blinders; and inevitably miss solutions/opportunities for the prejudice we carry.

Thanks

[Ultracrepidarian]

Why do you say you see Capitalism as having as much potential for damage as Socialism?

[xris]

Originally Posted by Khethil

Here, here (of course, by posting I've just pushed the thread one more tick - sorry bout that). Still, I've never understood the malevolence behind this or that political or economic label. If it makes sense; if it's the right thing to do at the right time, who cares what label it might bear?

I've voted democrat as often as I've voted republican and abhor the schism those two labels have wrought. From the personality analysis and viewpoint surveys I've taken, I'm about as liberal as I am conservative. Similarly, I see capitalism as having as much potential for damage as socialism. So... why do we hang our hats on these labels and defend them to the death?

Any idea, decision or concept should be thought through to its logical permutation; weighing the likely benefits against the likely negative effects. The instant we carry the banner of "this" or "that" orientation, we don horse-blinders; and inevitably miss solutions/opportunities for the prejudice we carry.

Thanks

I will never deny my social views of politics, if someone demands they ask my politics i will tell them im a socialist.I would never vote for a capitalist party, never.Its not their individual policies but their politics even though we need enterprising people and free trade.
The core values are different and when i look at any right wing party they scare the pants off me.I am prejudiced but only by experience and by their rhetoric speech's.

[Ultracrepidarian]

How are a capitalist's core values different?

[xris]

Originally Posted by Ultracrepidarian

How are a capitalist's core values different?

The moral issues appear to be forgotten when i see capitalism being administered.Profit at any cost or any way.It makes good men leave their values at home.

[Mr. Fight the Power]

Originally Posted by Theaetetus

Well I have a socialist tape measure right here...

Pretty much everyone is a socialist to some degree in various ways.

C'mon, you've read the literature, you have studied political philosophy. I know you can tell what is socialist and what is not.

[Ultracrepidarian]

Profit at all costs and with no regard for morals? That is not a value of Capitalism, much less at the core. Who would adhere to a political philosophy that espoused material gain by any means and in disregard to morality? Nihilistic thugs, murderers, and thieves. Capitalism is a political philosophy, at the heart of which, is an idea of a government which recognizes individual right to life as opposed to collective rights. One shouldn't confuse a Capitalist's philosophy with a criminal's lack of morality. It's not fair, to say the least.

[Mr. Fight the Power]

Originally Posted by Khethil

Here, here (of course, by posting I've just pushed the thread one more tick - sorry bout that). Still, I've never understood the malevolence behind this or that political or economic label. If it makes sense; if it's the right thing to do at the right time, who cares what label it might bear?

I've voted democrat as often as I've voted republican and abhor the schism those two labels have wrought. From the personality analysis and viewpoint surveys I've taken, I'm about as liberal as I am conservative. Similarly, I see capitalism as having as much potential for damage as socialism. So... why do we hang our hats on these labels and defend them to the death?

Any idea, decision or concept should be thought through to its logical permutation; weighing the likely benefits against the likely negative effects. The instant we carry the banner of "this" or "that" orientation, we don horse-blinders; and inevitably miss solutions/opportunities for the prejudice we carry.

Thanks

As soon as you can compromise your true opinions on what you consider to be just and fair, I will cease to think of you as a human.

I don't carry political labels well myself. I am an anarchist who believes in private property but fully supports and believes in the future of community based collective action in land, credit, and production. Its an amalgamation somewhere near mutualism but I completely reject mutualism's economics.

To most anarchists, I am considered an ancap, but I am likely the best ancap a left anarchist has ever seen.

The thing is, I cannot help but greet political opinions and especially actions, that violate what I consider just and fair with anything but malevolence. I abhor injustice.

Ultimately, socialism is a reaction to the excesses of capitalism to return to the laborer the full fruits of his labor. This is the utmost in economic justice, and anything less than this optimal is slavery.

In the end, it simply irks me that someone would claim the moral high ground of socialism to offer up opinions that are morally reprehensible to me.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by Mr. Fight the Power

Ultimately, socialism is a reaction to the excesses of capitalism to return to the laborer the full fruits of his labor. This is the utmost in economic justice, and anything less than this optimal is slavery.

Interesting. I think I agree. How would that work in todays reality? It would mace companies impossible, right?

[xris]

Originally Posted by Ultracrepidarian

Profit at all costs and with no regard for morals? That is not a value of Capitalism, much less at the core. Who would adhere to a political philosophy that espoused material gain by any means and in disregard to morality? Nihilistic thugs, murderers, and thieves. Capitalism is a political philosophy, at the heart of which, is an idea of a government which recognizes individual right to life as opposed to collective rights. One shouldn't confuse a Capitalist's philosophy with a criminal's lack of morality. It's not fair, to say the least.

Its principles are displayed in its achievements, just look at them and the results are seen every where.Corporate bodies are their highest achievement and they will willingly destroy for profit.The cigarette companies are a prime example.International companies like Nestles and others act like morals are obstructions to profits.Oil companies use any means at their disposal to advance its share of the market.Ignore democratic demands by the citizens and will sit down with the devil for the next million barrels of crude.Bandits come in many disguises and only the product distinguishes one from the other.

---------- Post added at 01:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Mr. Fight the Power

As soon as you can compromise your true opinions on what you consider to be just and fair, I will cease to think of you as a human.

I don't carry political labels well myself. I am an anarchist who believes in private property but fully supports and believes in the future of community based collective action in land, credit, and production. Its an amalgamation somewhere near mutualism but I completely reject mutualism's economics.

To most anarchists, I am considered an ancap, but I am likely the best ancap a left anarchist has ever seen.

The thing is, I cannot help but greet political opinions and especially actions, that violate what I consider just and fair with anything but malevolence. I abhor injustice.

Ultimately, socialism is a reaction to the excesses of capitalism to return to the laborer the full fruits of his labor. This is the utmost in economic justice, and anything less than this optimal is slavery.

In the end, it simply irks me that someone would claim the moral high ground of socialism to offer up opinions that are morally reprehensible to me.

well sir your dog eat dog world of the best survives and the lowest are left to starve is my idea of the worst form of civilisation man could conceive of.It makes no consideration of the weak the disabled or the mentally ill.It admires the best and condemns the least.Yes i do take the high road and you can not deny it.We left Anarchy behind when we deserted tribalism and made friends with our neighbours.