Socialism (Moved from Grapes of Wrath)

[xris]

Your principles are not that simple as you have demonstrated before.The red rose of socialism does not always smell that sweet, when it is grown with dogma as fertiliser.

---------- Post added at 09:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 AM ----------

Originally Posted by EmperorNero

Everybody paying the same rate does sound fair to me.
Do you agree that it is a good idea to punish your children for better grades, while rewarding bad grades?

Why would the majority, that does not pay any taxes, be against socialism?
They don't have to pay for it.
The state has no business redistributing wealth. Quit useless social programs and the state does not need as much income.

This is your opinion that gave me most concern.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by xris

Your principles are not that simple as you have demonstrated before.The red rose of socialism does not always smell that sweet, when it is grown with dogma as fertiliser.

---------- Post added at 09:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 AM ----------

This is your opinion that gave me most concern.

Alrighty. I still approve of that. It might have been badly explained.
What do you disapprove of?

[xris]

Originally Posted by EmperorNero

Alrighty. I still approve of that. It might have been badly explained.
What do you disapprove of?

The dogma that free enterprise is almost sinful and land ownership should be placed in government hands.There are extremes in every ideology and it is for moderate men to calm the storms of excess.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by xris

The dogma that free enterprise is almost sinful and land ownership should be placed in government hands.There are extremes in every ideology and it is for moderate men to calm the storms of excess.

I don't understand, I didn't support that. Isn't that what I was against all the time?

[xris]

Originally Posted by EmperorNero

I don't understand, I didn't support that. Isn't that what I was against all the time?

Its what im against, thats what you asked me...Keep up.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by xris

Its what im against, thats what you asked me...Keep up.

I think that free enterprise is not sinful, and government intervention and ownership should be restricted to protecting the individual property rights of it's citizens. I think that the problem is the government creating special situations for some, which you insist is a inherent hallmark of capitalism. I am advocating getting rig of those special treatments. You are advocating shifting this special treatment to benefit the weak. I pointed out that this is impossible to do, as in a system where the government has the power to grant special treatment, it will inevitably grant special treatments to the rich, as they have the means to make that happen.
Yes, not all socialism is the extreme kind. But I'm saying that it will inevitably become that.

Why do you think we're still using oil? Because the government gave the people being rich from it the special treatment of suppressing alternatives. That's why I am telling you that government intervention in the economy is the problem, it doesn't really matter if it's the kind that supports the rich or the poor, it's the thing itself that is the problem.

The current system is not remotely free market capitalism. In a free market, what should happen when limits to physical resources are approached is adaptation and natural change toward a new path of growth: new energy source, more efficiency, etc. The profit motive itself ensures that old methods, which have become inefficient due to depletion of resources, will be abandoned in favor of new methods. No amount of government regulation is going to conjure into existence new resources. I look at it like this. A free market economy works because it is responsive to the physical reality and can adapt gradually to changing conditions. A centrally planned economy is fixed on one idea of what the system should be, or maybe changes form time to time based on the ideas of some bureaucrats which may or may not be realistic; it is not responsive to the physical reality. It follows a path, which is almost certainly not the most efficient path, directed by the government, consuming all the resources that, under a free market, could have been applied to productive, efficient endeavors. We have burned though a hugely rich and productive world in order to travel along the path chosen for us by our leaders, which is now at its end, and we don't have enough left to make a new path.

[xris]

Oh do me favour brother you are sounding just like the opposite to my Old union fanatics.Historical fanatical rhetoric , that conveys no real meaning or gives me any new reason to even listen to you.
Ive heard it all before its so bloody boring and just like the Chinese torture i was taught to withstand by the military, if captured..drip drip drip.I believe you, i believe, just leave me alone please...I just want to go home....

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by xris

Oh do me favour brother you are sounding just like the opposite to my Old union fanatics.Historical fanatical rhetoric , that conveys no real meaning or gives me any new reason to even listen to you.
Ive heard it all before its so bloody boring and just like the Chinese torture i was taught to withstand by the military, if captured..drip drip drip.I believe you, i believe, just leave me alone please...I just want to go home....

I feel like you do a lot in political debates, friend.
For example the strategy on the gay marriage thing is just making people tired of debating so they give in.
I am not trying to do that. I wanted to explain the complicated truth. If you reject it because it's complicated, I can't help you. It's all there, in that last post.

That's why people are leftys. It takes so long to explain the other side of things, that they reject it.
Since we allowed every breathing being to vote, emotional appeals have more political power than hard to understand logical arguments.

[xris]

Originally Posted by EmperorNero

I feel like you do a lot in political debates, friend.
For example the strategy on the gay marriage thing is just making people tired of debating so they give in.
I am not trying to do that. I wanted to explain the complicated truth. If you reject it because it's complicated, I can't help you. It's all there, in that last post.

That's why people are leftys. It takes so long to explain the other side of things, that they reject it.
Since we allowed every breathing being to vote, emotional appeals have more political power than hard to understand logical arguments.

Gay marriage is a leftish plot to overcome western democracy...oh my..im just about to wet myself with hysterical laughter..

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by xris

Gay marriage is a leftish plot to overcome western democracy...oh my..im just about to wet myself with hysterical laughter..

I didn't say that. i only compared the debating style.

The fact remains that you are unwilling to accept facts that were put before you through this thread, by me and others.