Socialism (Moved from Grapes of Wrath)

[xris]

Originally Posted by EmperorNero

The other sides propaganda got to you first.



You have to struggle through that last long post by BrightNoon, seriously.
It explains it all. Don't reset the debate to generalizations again, dispute specific points. If you chose to believe in a conclusion, that is not supported by facts, that's called faith.

Ive never been convinced of propaganda, its life's experiences that have formed my opinions and the facts that are laid out for all to observe.
I have read brightnoons post three times and it only speaks of sickness in the system, not the core beliefs that caused these events.
i could be speaking from a point in time when communist system failed and the results that manifested themselves.We are observing the weaknesses of a totally free economy not the ethics that caused it nor the crucially nasty medicine we should be taking.

[EmperorNero]

OK. What's the first untrue statement in that post?

[xris]

Originally Posted by EmperorNero

OK. What's the first untrue statement in that post?

That its fascism that's at fault not capitalism..

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by xris

Individual failures of government do not take away from the core beliefs of socialism.

What if it is inevitable? What if that's just what's going to happen?
How can you assume a positive theoretical outcome when the contrary has been shown in every example?

[xris]

Originally Posted by EmperorNero

What if it is inevitable? What if that's just what's going to happen?
How can you assume a positive theoretical outcome when the contrary has been shown in every example?

So what about my reply to your question?did that not warrant a response?

---------- Post added at 08:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 AM ----------

Originally Posted by EmperorNero

What if it is inevitable? What if that's just what's going to happen?
How can you assume a positive theoretical outcome when the contrary has been shown in every example?

Every example? when did democratic socialism fail so badly in comparison to what we are seeing now? Not communism remember.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by xris

That its fascism that's at fault not capitalism..

Originally Posted by BrightNoon

If an inflationairy monetary system in private hands is not a part of capitalism, how can you blame capitalism for the ills of an inflationairy monetary system? Non sequitur. Our constant boom and bust is the result, not of the free market as the talking heads would have you believe, but of the credit cycle: i.e. the periodic expansion and contraction of credit by the central bank. Manipulation of interest rates is THE most important reason for the loss of manufacturing in the U.S., the stagnation of wages, etc. Artifically low interest rates encourage risk and malivestment. Every bust is actually an attempt by the 'invisible hand,' i.e. the physical reality of the economy, to correct imbalances, such as investment in derivative products based on mortgages during a housing boom. Every time the government intervenes with stimulus, or the central bank lowers interest rates or acts as the 'lender of last resort' is prevents that correction and in fact increases the magnitude of the imbalances. O, so government intervention prevents downturns, that good. Wrong, its only DELAYS downturns. At some point there is too much debt, too much pent-up inflation and too much inefficiency for the economy to reinflate, no matter how much money the government spends or the central bank lends. Instead of experiencing minor recessions periodically, as are bound to occur, and which actually increase efficiency and prosperity by selection of the fittest, we are going to experience, when the point of no return arrives, all the cumulative damage at once, magnified. In other words, it is a giant Ponzi scheme. My point is that all the ills you attribute to capitalism are not inevitable consequences of a free market, but rather the inevitable consequences of central planning by the government, in coordination with the banks and corporations that control the government. It is fascism that you don't like, not capitalism.

fascism - A political philosophy or movement that exalts nation above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government and severe economic and social regimentation.

---------- Post added at 03:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24 PM ----------

Originally Posted by xris

Every example? when did democratic socialism fail so badly in comparison to what we are seeing now? Not communism remember.

If you declare socialism to be something else, you should define what it is. Name an example where it succeeded.

---------- Post added at 05:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24 PM ----------

What you are saying, is that it's not the intervention in the functioning of capitalism, but capitalism itself, that cause the extreme boom and busts in capitalist economies.
As Mr. Fight the power explained, a free (as in only regulating fraud) market economy will find a natural point of stability. Intervention is what creates phases of boom, that usually are followed by phases of bust.

A capitalist economy will have cycles of mild up and down. A bit as the mood of every human being. Intervening in times of down, is like taking a bunch of mood pills, it will only delay and intensify the next down. At some point even the mood pills won't help any more, and you have a crash. The solution is not intervening and letting the mild cycles play out.

[xris]

I dont need to be told the definition of fascism,the fault i spotted was that fascism was responsible for this recent crisis.How can a democratic republican government suddenly be called fascist..I should be claiming that not you or your comrade.
Norway is good example of a modern democratic socialist party.
This recent crisis the worst in modern history can be laid at the feet of rampant capitalist agenda.Greed beyond bounds, uncontrolled free market gluttony.I understand economies have ups and downs at the mercy of political instability within a free and i mean a free not restrictive international market.This is not what we are experiencing its the inability to recognise that capitalism encourages rampant greed, if not tamed it self destructs.
I dont want communism or any inconsiderate left minded stupidity, i can assure i fought them on more than one occasion,but an ethical moral social form of government encouraged by the voter not forced on the voter.We all need to revisit our moral values and duties to our fellow man.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by xris

Norway is good example of a modern democratic socialist party.

Norway is in a special situation because of a tiny, tiny, heterogeneous population and rich natural resources. Also their geographic position and the benefit of barely having any military cost, because the United States takes that over for them, factor in. Norway no representative example, it functions despite socialism, bot because of socialism.
Besides that, Norway is going down hill as the rest of Europe.

It's not that nations are affluent because they are socialist. They are socialist because they are affluent. Life in prosperous nations is comfortable, being comfortable, leads to being detached from reality.

[xris]

Originally Posted by EmperorNero

Norway is in a special situation because of a tiny, tiny, heterogeneous population and rich natural resources. Also their geographic position and the benefit of barely having any military cost, because the United States takes that over for them, factor in. Norway no representative example, it functions despite socialism, bot because of socialism.
Besides that, Norway is going down hill as the rest of Europe.

It's not that nations are affluent because they are socialist. They are socialist because they are affluent. Life in prosperous nations is comfortable, being comfortable, leads to being detached from reality.

You fail to realise the motives of socialism, its not the rampant desire to be better than your neighbour.International socialism recognises that winning is not the priority but common needs and community are the essence of morality.Keep your boom and bust, mega rich , mega poor.
So what wonderful state will you bring forth as a golden example of capitalism? i shudder in anticipation.
I pointed to my countries assets introduced by socialism now you show me yours.

[EmperorNero]

Originally Posted by xris

You fail to realise the motives of socialism, its not the rampant desire to be better than your neighbour.International socialism recognises that winning is not the priority but common needs and community are the essence of morality.Keep your boom and bust, mega rich , mega poor.
So what wonderful state will you bring forth as a golden example of capitalism? i shudder in anticipation.
I pointed to my countries assets introduced by socialism now you show me yours.

I get it. You're a idealist. I'm not saying you're a communist, you made quite clear that you're not. But that's what communists always say. We should all work for the common good instead of our own good.
It's just not going to happen.

How about western civilization after world war 2? The greatest prosperity and freedom for the most people in the history of humanity.
And you pointed out one bad example. The fact is that the example of Norway can't be copied to other nations. Norway has a population of 4.8 million, they're all white and have a bunch of natural resources.