Nietzsche -- The Man Behind the Philosophy

[Theaetetus]

Considering that many threads on Nietzsche are littered with ad hominem arguments that ignore the ideas of Nietzsche, this thread is being created so the others within the subforum can be used to discuss ideas, rather than complain about Nietzsche's life and why that discredits him. What this means is no posting ad hominem arguments in the other Nietzsche threads unless it is relevant to the topic being discussed (which is very rare).

Thank you for complying!

[Reconstructo]

But Nietzsche himself was the type to examine the man behind the words, I think. He suggest that the ugliness of Socrates is a refutation, and also that Plato's philosophy was inspired by the beautiful youths of Athens. Of course he does it with ironic distance, but he does it.

Still, I sympathize with your desire to argue the work and not the biography.

[Leonard]

Alright. A thread without ad hominem/irrelevant posts. I'll posit a short question: what aspects of Nietzsche's writing do you admire?

[Reconstructo]

On the Prejudices of Philosopers (BG&E) is golden.

[Theaetetus]

I admire his poetic use of language. Unfortunately, I cannot read German so I do not get the whole effect, but Kaufmann has done such a fine job translating his work that it is poetic even in English. Of all the philosophers, he is the champion of style.

[Leonard]

Kaufmann is one of the best; he translated some Goethe and other German works too. Anyway, it adds effect when he speaks defiantly in his writing, and he's likely the oldest contemporary (some might call him the last) philosopher.

[Fido]

Originally Posted by Theaetetus

Considering that many threads on Nietzsche are littered with ad hominem arguments that ignore the ideas of Nietzsche, this thread is being created so the others within the subforum can be used to discuss ideas, rather than complain about Nietzsche's life and why that discredits him. What this means is no posting ad hominem arguments in the other Nietzsche threads unless it is relevant to the topic being discussed (which is very rare).

Thank you for complying!

Why would anyone ever expect that the ideas of the man do not justify the man, and his morality or immorality as the case may be... The fruit of that tree is diseased, and it is the diseased mind that craves it...Ideas do not exist apart from human kind, outside of the human mind...Generally what we do is what we are, and what we think is what we are, and our ideas come out of our experience...It would be easy to see the likes of Nietzsche in any bus terminal in America where crazies must escape the cold...His like can be seen babbling in the alleys and streets of any big city...That he was a genius is obvious, and that he was defective in morality is equally obvious...He was diseased long before spirochetes squirreled away his mind...

It is nonsense to try to deny the man and assert the work...

[Theaetetus]

Ideas are things of history when they are documented. Thus, an idea can live far beyond the life of a single human. The idea does not change because the person that came up with it had syphilis, and the idea does not change when the person that thought it first end up insane. The idea is independent of the mind as soon as it has been recorded.

I have yet to see you provide any sort of evidence as to why Nietzsche's ideas are unworthy of discussed besides your personal convictions. You also keep telling that Nietzsche is defective morally, but you have yet to provide any sort of evidence from any of the texts that argues for your convictions.

[Reconstructo]

It's been a awhile, but I read a few biographies of Nietzsche, and I would say he lived the life of a good man, in the usual sense of the word. He worked hard, achieved a academic position that was remarkable for his age, had the guts to state unpopular opinions, turned his back on antisemitism, etc.

He lived on small pension, this sickly man, and spent his time thinking about the improvement of his species.

His rants are sometimes ridiculous, but his best sentences are immortal. He raised his mustache against prejudice. And his best sentences are like crystals or viruses, which certainly transcend the facts of his biography. While it's natural to consider his work in relation to his life, it's wasteful to neglect his genius in the name of his excesses.

Just one more opinion.

[Fido]

Originally Posted by Theaetetus

Ideas are things of history when they are documented. Thus, an idea can live far beyond the life of a single human.

As I read this the old dog in me licks his chops and considers sinking his teeth in and hanging on for the ride... Aahem; sooo, Ideas live??? Do they pay taxes and go to the bar with their favorite people???
So, Ideas are things... How many of these living things have you captured live??? I think you do not guess that things are real, and ideas are not real, and cannot be conjured out of the mind, but must reflect reality much as a face appears in the mirror of the person facing it...It defines some reality, even when it is a moral reality mirrored by a moral form....

The idea does not change because the person that came up with it had syphilis, and the idea does not change when the person that thought it first end up insane. The idea is independent of the mind as soon as it has been recorded.

People do not think up ideas but think with ideas, and can only recognize those qualities they can conceive of in the form of an idea... Nietzsche was not comming up with ideas but offering a certain narative for the human experience, saying where we went wrong and what we must do to rectify our path... I am certain Nietzsche would agree that this narrative required a certain perspective, but what was that perspective... The guy was always odd, a peter pan of a man incapable of emotional growth and maturity, trapped in childhood by doting sisters, but without a giant of a father to slay and become...Yet, he had a larger father to slay, his father in heaven...Did it escape you that he was a music critic???That Wagner was a father figure, and his girl, a foil and flirt, an improvement on his own mother... Upon what basis was he to judge music...One who knew called his music rubbish if I remembered the word correctly, but I still have the book... We know from the work of Van Gough, if we can discount the notion that he ate his paints, that syphilus does affect perception, and having seen some of Van Goughs work up close, that it may distort perception almost to the breaking point...The postmans wife who resembles a frog nursing a pig was hated by its subject, and she once used it to patch a broken fence...The same is true of Baudelaire... Who else but a syphiletic could be inspired to compare his love to a rotting corps, and that is not the object of his love, but the love itself...If you could compare the superman with the man Nietzsche the difference would be shocking... The syphilus was only a part, a symptom taken alone of a larger disease... He felt small and irrelevent, and superman was his secret self... He was unable to relate as an equal with women, and women had for too long bossed him around... Set free, he sought out immoral relationships with women, and these relationships were all financial primarily having sexual overtones, and there the buyer was presumably always right...But again; where was Mrs. superman and baby superman??? Even in his fantasies he could not relate to women... He was always a cracked plate...He always saw things differently... He lived so much in the past of his fantasies that he wanted to go there in person... He had death wish, and there he was not alone... It is quite common for people who have lost part of their brains and minds to see things differently...Isn't that the point of a Rorschach test???

I have yet to see you provide any sort of evidence as to why Nietzsche's ideas are unworthy of discussed besides your personal convictions. You also keep telling that Nietzsche is defective morally, but you have yet to provide any sort of evidence from any of the texts that argues for your convictions.

I do not think Nietzsche had any new ideas, and the proof of this is that ideas have names, so they can be recalled...What have you in mind??? Infinite recurrence, perspectivism if that is one of his, morality as immorality??? What is new here???Sure; now his opinion must be discussed, because their historical effect has been so great...He was not alone inrecognizing the unreasonableness of mankind...Baudelaire was with him in a general antirationalist movement culminating in Freud...His individuation of the will, which Schopenhaur warned against, if I remember correctly, could have come from the general dis-individuation of society and the economy... Nietzche hated the common man, and clearly believed the individual is responsible for all human progress...That is immoral because community is morality... The slaves cannot be expected to share the morality of the masters, though often they do...What the superman is is the ultimate criminal, which as a form of self expression he defends...And I hope you do not miss the fact that our criminals have always been our anti heroes, which are the heroes set against society rather then within society...And there is a reason i don't actually site a lot of his work unless challenged...Youth is a form of madness, and this is said as much in the Republic...In my youth I read thus spake, and all of that crap appealed to me more in my youth than you can imagine...I was a man of will, and ironworker, and far more a superman than Nietzsche's wildest wet dream, and what I desired was my moral and the whole world could just eat my shet if they did not like it because I was going to do as I wanted without regard... I had to be rehabilitated to become a human being, and that did not ever happen with Nietzsche...Today it hurts me to read to read his writing because I feel I am witnessing the struggle of a madman with all his demons... He is so OC, all that talk of rot, and the tyrade against Paul is classic...He saw things as a brilliant child sees things, but he never quite grew up and learned how to relate in equal relationships...Any one could tailor a message to irresponsible and immoral youth...Just tell them what they want to hear....Anyone else would be immitation...