Is omniscience compatible with human freedom?

[fast]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

But God's lying is really not the point, is it. The point is whether if God knows what you will do, must you do it. The answer is no. But if the question is whether if God knows what you will do, will you do it, the answer is unquestionably, yes. The puzzling question is whether if God is certain about what you will do, must you do it.

If God is certain, then not only does He know what He does, but in addition to that, He cannot be mistaken about what He knows, but I don't see how that would imply that I must do what I will do, so to answer the puzzling question, I'd say no, it's not the case that I must do what I will do just because God is certain about what I will do.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by fast

If God is certain, then not only does He know what He does, but in addition to that, He cannot be mistaken about what He knows, but I don't see how that would imply that I must do what I will do, so to answer the puzzling question, I'd say no, it's not the case that I must do what I will do just because God is certain about what I will do.

Yes. It now seems to me that if God is certain about what I will do, then it is impossible that He should be mistaken about what I will do. But that does not imply that it is impossible that I should do differently.

[Reconstructo]

I think it's hard to conceive of freedom in the face of God's omniscience. I say again: free will smacks of a certain absurdity, however useful in its everyday blurriness.

Free will is often an excuse to punish and/or an excuse to take credit. Free will is needed to justify the threat of Hell, for otherwise this character, God, is evil.

At least Santa Clause has to wait and see if we are bad or good. And if God already knows, why not just toss us into the correct afterlife? Why the detour on planet Earth?

This is not to say that a creative person cannot argue for the conjunction of human free-will and divine omniscience.

[ACB]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

Yes. It now seems to me that if God is certain about what I will do, then it is impossible that He should be mistaken about what I will do. But that does not imply that it is impossible that I should do differently.

If God is certain about what I will do, how is it possible that I should do differently without creating a contradiction?

[Zetherin]

Originally Posted by ACB

If God is certain about what I will do, how is it possible that I should do differently without creating a contradiction?

Exactly. I don't understand this either.

If God is certain about what I will do, I cannot choose differently than what he knows. If I choose differently than what he knows, he was not certain. And not only would he not be certain, but what he knew would have been wrong. And we're assuming God is infallible, as far as I understood this conversation.

Fast and kennethamy, please clue us in.

Originally Posted by Reconstructo

This is not to say that a creative person cannot argue for the conjunction of human free-will and divine omniscience.

Do you have such creativity? If so, please begin.

[Reconstructo]

One argument that could be made is that God's power transcends human understanding. But that's an old old cheat code.....

[fast]

Originally Posted by Zetherin

Exactly. I don't understand this either.

If God is certain about what I will do, I cannot choose differently than what he knows. If I choose differently than what he knows, he was not certain. And not only would he not be certain, but what he knew would have been wrong. And we're assuming God is infallible, as far as I understood this conversation.

Fast and kennethamy, please clue us in.

If I cannot, then I will not, but that I will not doesn't mean I cannot.

I can do differently, but I will not do differently, and He knows that.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by fast

If I cannot, then I will not, but that I will not doesn't mean I cannot.

I can do differently, but I will not do differently, and He knows that.

Yes. Had I done differently (which I did not) then He would have known that. But since I did what I did, He knew that was what I was going to do. God knew what I would do because that was what I was going to do. But, I did not do what I did because God knew it.

[Zetherin]

I think I've found the root of the miscommunication between ACB and I, and you and fast:

When we say "could have done otherwise", we are meaning could have otherwise from what God knows. When you guys say "could have done otherwise", you are meaning could have done otherwise from other possibilities that you could have done, not that it is otherwise from what God knows.

I think we all agree that we don't do things because God knows, but we can only do things that God knows.

[fast]

To add further:

He knew what I going to do before I knew what I was going to do. One thing I did was something I had to do, and another thing I did was something that I didn’t have to do but did anyway.

In the first case, He knew I was going to do it before I knew I was going to do it, and He knew that I had to do it.

In the second case, He knew I was going to do it before I knew I was going to do it, and He knew that I was going to make the choice and do it anyway.