Is omniscience compatible with human freedom?

[Reconstructo]

Originally Posted by salima

there seem to be two ways of using language...to me, using the word necessarily is a more poetic or aesthetic way of wording the sentence, and might be meant only to imply a shade of meaning such as the words 'of course' or 'certainly' would add. but essentially it would not be a limit or condition placed on the other words in the sentence. in fact, why did i just use the word 'essentially'?

in that case, people need to specify whether or not they are using words as they are defined in 'formal logic' or common everyday use. this happens all the time on the forum. there are some people who are so well versed in the definitions and use of words in formal logic that they arent able to understand a person who is speaking in layman's terms any more.

Salima makes a good point. I respect both logic and figurative language. I criticize logic not for its successes but for its transgressions into territory it is not equipped to deal with.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by Reconstructo

Salima makes a good point. I respect both logic and figurative language. I criticize logic not for its successes but for its transgressions into territory it is not equipped to deal with.

What makes you think this is part of that territory? The logic is quite clear. Omniscience is not logically incompatible with free will.

[Reconstructo]

Actually, I think omniscience and free-will are a difficult match. I suspect the case made for either side will lean more on rhetoric than logic. I also suspect that most have emotional reasons for choosing one side or the other.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by Reconstructo

Actually, I think omniscience and free-will are a difficult match. I suspect the case made for either side will lean more on rhetoric than logic. I also suspect that most have emotional reasons for choosing one side or the other.

What does "difficult match" mean? Are they compatible or not. Clearly knowing what someone will do is compatible with his doing it freely, since it can be known that he will freely do it.

[Reconstructo]

The problem is predestination. If God knows the future, how does this square with man acting freely in the present? I think it's a difficult issue.

[Zetherin]

Originally Posted by Reconstructo

The problem is predestination. If God knows the future, how does this square with man acting freely in the present? I think it's a difficult issue.

Because, even if God knows, how does this prevent someone from freely choosing? God can simply know that I freely chose something. God's knowing doesn't take away my freedom, it just means my freedom is known by God.

[Reconstructo]

Originally Posted by Zetherin

Because, even if God knows, how does this prevent someone from freely choosing? God can simply know that I freely chose something. God's knowing doesn't take away my freedom, it just means my freedom is known by God.

I respect your opinion. Still, long long ago I was religious in the traditional sense, and the problem of free will and omniscience helped corrode my faith.

The bible (at times) suggests that the majority of human beings end up in hell. Why would a majority choose the wrong path? Or why would 50 percent choose the wrong path? As soon as we subtract the contingent influences that a just God presumably allows for in his calculations, what is left of this concept Free Will? And what can we make of a God who knowingly creates beings that will for the most part suffer eternally?

[Zetherin]

Originally Posted by Reconstructo

I respect your opinion. Still, long long ago I was religious in the traditional sense, and the problem of free will and omniscience help corrode my faith.

I'm not sure this is a matter of opinion. How would God's knowing prevent you from freely doing something?

The bible (at times) suggests that the majority of human beings end up in hell. Why would a majority choose the wrong path? Or why would 50 percent choose the wrong path? As soon as we subtract the contingent influences that a just God presumably allow for, what is left of this concept Free Will? And what can we make of a God who knowing creates beings that will for the most part suffer eternally?

But none of this has to do with what we're talking about here.

[ACB]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

What does "difficult match" mean? Are they compatible or not. Clearly knowing what someone will do is compatible with his doing it freely, since it can be known that he will freely do it.

But, as has been pointed out before, it is far from clear that being certain what someone will do is compatible with his doing it freely. I am still pondering this question. I suppose it depends what one means by "freely".

If there exists a future fact that God has always known, then it must always have been an existent fact, otherwise God could not have known it. In that case, it must always have been a settled matter, so it is hard to see in what sense it could be regarded as contingent. So if there is a future human action that God knows with certainty, it could be argued that the action is necessary, and hence not free.

[Zetherin]

Originally Posted by ACB

If there exists a future fact that God has always known, then it must always have been an existent fact, otherwise God could not have known it. In that case, it must always have been a settled matter, so it is hard to see in what sense it could be regarded as contingent. So if there is a future human action that God knows with certainty, it could be argued that the action is necessary, and hence not free.

God's certainty would not make the action necessary; it would not change my motives for that future action, or whether I had the freedom to do said action.

Scenario A: Let's assume that God knows that I will be under heavy influence from a powerful medication and that I will break a bottle. All of this was against my own will, and I was nearly unconscious of my action; my action were compelled. God knows this with certainty.

Scenario B: Let's also assume that I consciously chose to order Chinese food instead of Thai food tonight from my favorite restaurant. This was a conscious choice, to which I had the freedom in choosing; this was not a compelled action. God also knows this with certainty.

God's knowing does not mean 1.) I wasn't compelled to break the bottle because of the drugs, or 2.) I didn't have the freedom to choose Chinese over Thai that night.

God's omniscience simply means God knows all of my actions, whether I freely choose them or not.