Know Thyself?

[ValueRanger]

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

ValueRanger,

When you say that Eternity is in flux, in what way do you mean this? Do you mean fluctuating? Do you realize, if in fact you do mean this, that fluctuation would mean Eternity changes?

Also what do you mean by Eternity is more or less proposition? I’m afraid that goes right over my little head.

Thanx,
S9

Is change constant, and does human "eternity" change?

You can wiki Flux... unless you refuse to change?

[Pathfinder]

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

TT Man,

You shouldn’t want to call anything by any particular name without proof. This is vital.

That is why the Zen masters so often say, ”Don’t look at my finger (AKA my words), look where I am pointing (with my words.)

This is a participator’s sport. You personally look, and you personally investigation, and then you personally discover your very Self (both Eternal, Immediate and Intimate.

All imagination takes place within the mind. What I am pointing at, Thyself, is outside of the mind, totally transcendent.

What you must do eventually is to look with what is often called “bare attention,” that is attention naked of preconception. This will reveal to you, what you need to know.

Everything we think is quite full of judgments, even if we do not know this at the time. For instance, when you pick between two cars, you have already made up your mind that one of these cars will fill your needs. This is a judgment.

When you look at what I am saying about dreams, you probably think "I am not dreaming," or "S9 is wrong." Or you think, "I am staying right where I am until S9 gives me a good reason to change." These are all judgments.

This is not really being totally receptive to a new idea, is it? Even if you think that I am absolutely right, you have some idea about me giving the truth to you, which incidentally is impossible. We all must find this, sooner or later, within our own self.

Since what I am speaking of here, Self, is impossible to actually put into words, all that we can hope for is an insight of sorts and your own sudden noticing the your Self.

Words can sometime bring us to this point, where we are face to face with Self, but they cannot accompany us over too the other side.

Funny thing though, when you finally do Realize, you will understand that you have been looking at your Self all of your life, every single second, and yet you never realized what you were looking at.

Namaste,
S9

There is two realizations of self; the physiological and the psychological realizations.

[Subjectivity9]

ValueRanger,

In finitude it does seem that change is constant. But, I am not sure that we actually know what change is? One might even ask if it is the landscape was constant, and it is only mind that appears to move.

Science builds so much upon unfounded premises.

If humanity is a fixture within finitude and Eternity is not, orin fact Eternity is outside of finitude, I am not sure if you can actually point to something called human eternity? Even infinity is questionable.

Okay, I went to wiki and read. Now what? Do you have a point to build upon my efforts?

S9

[ValueRanger]

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

ValueRanger,

In finitude it does seem that change is constant. But, I am not sure that we actually know what change is? One might even ask if it is the landscape was constant, and it is only mind that appears to move.

Science builds so much upon unfounded premises.

If humanity is a fixture within finitude and Eternity is not, orin fact Eternity is outside of finitude, I am not sure if you can actually point to something called human eternity? Even infinity is questionable.

Okay, I went to wiki and read. Now what? Do you have a point to build upon my efforts?

S9

Perhaps it's more important for you, at your later stages in life, to have more of a building effort than I?

I do well in balancing the dialectical differentials in life's flux. I can easily oppose your lessening of science into a greater foundational premise - as failure is key to success in trial-and-error, scientific method.

It is when people like you, who have thrived in the tools of the past, continually fail to shift to newer sciences, so you can better usher in the next generations, through decades of wisdom.

But perhaps this is apropos to the functionality of a philosophy forum? At such a distance where proximal value addition is deficient, mayhap the essential data you represent here is best failed toward younger successes?

Or is this just more axiomatic dialectics - near or far - begging for subjective trajectories?

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

TT Man,

(1) Eternity is the One. It has no opposite.

I don't know what "the One" means. Is eternity infinite?

[Subjectivity9]

TT Man,

The One is the One Self, which is beyond dualism. Duality requires two, as in Yin/Yang, or up/down, or in/out. It is what the Buddhist call, “Co-dependent Arising.” No one thing in duality is completely self-sufficient, or can stands alone.

On the other hand, the One/Self is completely Whole/Complete unto Its Self, and requires no thing outside of the One in order to be Complete.

No, Eternity is beyond/outsife of time, and is not lineal. Infinity however is a measure of time. It is a long, long, long, long time. To we humans, infinity appears as forever time or endless. But we have no way of knowing if this is in fact the case, that it does not end. Of course we must understand that infinity also travel back to an unknown beginning as well.

I know the scientists speak of a Big Bang. But obviously something; either material or energy preceded this event. Otherwise we would have to say that the Big Bang came out of nothing. Even science isn’t that arrogant, is it?

S9

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

TT Man,

The One is the One Self, which is beyond dualism. Duality requires two, as in Yin/Yang, or up/down, or in/out. It is what the Buddhist call, “Co-dependent Arising.” No one thing in duality is completely self-sufficient, or can stands alone.

On the other hand, the One/Self is completely Whole/Complete unto Its Self, and requires no thing outside of the One in order to be Complete.

No, Eternity is beyond/outsife of time, and is not lineal. Infinity however is a measure of time. It is a long, long, long, long time. To we humans, infinity appears as forever time or endless. But we have no way of knowing if this is in fact the case, that it does not end. Of course we must understand that infinity also travel back to an unknown beginning as well.

I know the scientists speak of a Big Bang. But obviously something; either material or energy preceded this event. Otherwise we would have to say that the Big Bang came out of nothing. Even science isn’t that arrogant, is it?

S9

How are you aware of all these things you seem to be saying?

In many ways, it seems to me that you are asserting that you don't exist, yet you are aware of existing.

The One, by its very definition, cannot only be non-dual, it cannot be pluralized. So from where does my consciousness arise if it is not separate from yours?

It seems to me that "The One" cannot manifest more than one awareness and still be one, even if, as you say, the eternity within which it abides is outside of time, which, in itself, is expressly dualistic. If it is outside of time, then there must be a time for it to be outside of.

[Subjectivity9]

TT Man,

In the very beginning, I read a lot of what I am telling you now. It is scattered across/on top of the many great religions of this world. People have been both reasoning and contemplating these issues of metaphysics for many centuries.

I learned a good deal about the mind through both meditation and personal investigation of my own mind. But, I was doubly blessed to have traveled for many decades with a Spiritual friend, who was both keen of mind, and later very advanced in his understanding and finally 100% Enlightened.

Now, I am looking right at the Eternal Self, and it tells me everything I need to know.

I assert that S9 exists as a dream figure only. I, the Self, however am Eternally Present, as is your very Eternal Self. This is because there are seemingly many dream personalities, but there is only One Self.

Some people try to explain how duality is really a unity, in order to get around this seeming problem. But that is not true. The dream is one matrix made up on many conceptual parts, but the dream is not equal to the One, and does not define the One. The dream is just a dream. The One is not a jigsaw puzzle of parts, is not multiple personalities all stuck together, or even pieces of this dream. Parts do not have any true substance outside of the mind’s thinking them up.

We are not really trying to figure out if there is a dream that comes up, or where it comes from. It makes little difference one way or the other, because the dream is only imagination. What we really want to know is, “Who am I?” “Am I Real?” And, “Am I Eternal?” Or, “Am I, in fact, a part of some imaginary dream, and totally insubstantial.” Is it not?

Obviously the One can and does manifest many vessels that this One Awareness can fill with life, but only temporarily. It is a little like the One Sun’s many rays. The rays shoot out from the Sun and slowly dissipate. The rays are not equal to the Sun.

Words make it difficult not to say half-truths. The One/Self is actually not outside of anything. The One/Self is Everywhere Present, or Omnipresent. It is mind that comes up within the One as a dream. This dream is both the dreamer and his dream united. Neither of these is the actual fully Awake Self.

It is a little like if you were hypnotized and completely sure that you were a chicken.

I would come up to you and say, “Hi Mr. Chicken. I have some good news for you, you are not a chicken and you don’t have to lay any more eggs.”

You would then look at me, and say, “Of course, I am a chicken, why else would you call me Mr. Chicken?”

I would then say, “I called you Mr. Chicken in order to get your attention.” You would then say, “If I wasn’t a chicken, then how could I stop laying eggs?” See what I mean?

How do you get a hypnotized chicken to see he isn’t a chicken? Everything you said would not seem quite right to Mr. Chicken. It would probably be impossible.

So next you would ask him to investigate. Can you find any feathers on yourself, you might ask? And so on…

Remember this. Dreams are always pretty complete. If they require something, you will dream it into place. So if time is a requirement, you will dream there is time. This does not however prove that there is something called time outside of the dream, any more than you can continue to fly after a dream of flying, when you wake up.

There must be some part of us that reacts to this message of non-chickeness. Because so often even though confused, we come back and back for more. Finally, sleep grow thin, and things begin to make sense.

S9

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

I assert that S9 exists as a dream figure only. I, the Self, however am Eternally Present, as is your very Eternal Self. This is because there are seemingly many dream personalities, but there is only One Self.

S9

I can see the appeal of this belief system . . . the idea that one can continue on somehow after the death of the body. It certainly seems more palatable than the alternative – that is, the idea that when one is dead, one is gone, and there is no more. No consciousness, no memory, nothing. It is difficult to even imagine nothing, as how can one be at all objective about what does not exist?

This, I think, is a large part of the appeal of mainstream religious thought also; that somehow there is "life after death." Even the merging of one's self with some sort of "cosmic consciousness" would be at least some sort of continuation of self. Even the loss of autonomy seems preferable to non-existence!

However, it all seems very subjective to me. And yes, I know, that is a subjective observation on my part!

Perhaps the problem I have is that I keep looking for some form of objectivity in your explanations, but I am not finding any. Surely they must be there though, as purely subjective observations seem a weak foundation upon which to build a belief system, offering no greater level of veracity than does faith or even belief.

[Subjectivity9]

TT Man,

Because you are a thinking man, you would have to think this in the beginning. You are so habitually reliant upon your mind to give you the truth, and the mind says, “Get something objective. I need objects to juggle and make sense with”

Also, because death scares the hell out of mind, mind says, “This makes sense, fear of death has this person running for cover.”

But this body of S9’s will die. I am not spared illness, or old age in this dream. So mind should certainly take this set of circumstances into account, when accusing me of seeking the easy way out.

So what exactly do I gain? I gain my very Self, the truth of this Self, and freedom.

Right about here your ego self will step in and say, "If you tough it out, TT Guy, buy into the your own ugly but true story, than you are indeed both clever and also very special. You are too brave to run for cover.

But, is this true?

If so, are the most deeply depressed people on earth, even more special than you are? Just what if the pleasant story is also the true story? Do you think that could be possible. Does truth have to be ugly?

Personally, I never liked the idea of simply existing forever. I wanted to really know who I was, and what this was all about. I wanted the truth even if it hurt.

Just because this answer isn’t summed up in words, doesn’t make it any less real, either.

I actually find the story of death without continuance rather restful, believe it or not. That is exactly what will happen to S9, the ego personality.

What Spirit Self was, used to be fuzzy to me. I only had descriptions, much like you do now. So, I can well understand you confusion in this. But, I promise you this. “Just look, and you will find.” And, you will be glad that you did.

My “Spiritual Me,” is as familiar to me now, as that guy who looks back at you from the mirror every morning is to you. I am really acquainted with my Spiritual Self. It is very satisfying and true freedom.

S9