Know Thyself?

[Subjectivity9]

Hey TT Man,

I am afraid that you are going to see my answer to you as a simple slight of hand. I cannot be pinned myself down to any “ism” whatsoever.

“I Am Spirit,” or said slightly differently, “I Am Self.”

That is not to say that my mind isn’t capable of looking at an “ism” such as Determinism and seeing what I have said has some correspondence with what they may be saying at any given time.

Spirit doesn’t dwell within the mind. So consequently Spirit isn’t playing mind games like "What ism am I."

I am no long trapped within concepts. Mind uses its concepts as a way to control. Spirit doesn't play the game called control.


When I say that rules are like favorite toys, what I mean to say is that we pick toys/rules up because we find them engaging in some way. The toys/rules are bright and shiny and make us feel good just to look at them. Or we see a possibility to build something with them leading to a feeling of self-esteem or capability. But like all toys, rules remain situational.

By "situational" I mean that toys/rules are not capable of continuing to meet our need endlessly. The truth is that they loose their luster and we often simply out grow them.

The control that these rules/toys may have seemingly given us at one time, sooner or later will no longer bring us feelings of satisfaction. So rules like toys are often thrown aside in order to move on to the next best hope. (Been there/done that.) : ^ /

Subjectivity9

---------- Post added 09-24-2009 at 10:41 AM ----------

Rich,

Okay, I first thought that by Zhi you meant Chi, but that didn’t jive with my ideas about Free Will.

Next I Googled ‘Zhi,meaning’ and got answers like Zhi means: abides or influences on multiple levels, or to know, intelligence, will, intention, emotion, even to set in order. This didn’t surprise me because I am familiar with the Chinese way of making words so multi-purposed. But,

Here I am back wondering what your idea of Zhi’s meaning is. Details please.

Even collecting the information is like a pop. Pop, I collect this piece of information. Pop, I add this piece of information. Pop, I correspond these two with each other in this particular way. It’s like a light show, all smoke and mirrors, with thoughts popping all over the place. We are just along for the ride. If there is “Will” involved, it certainly doesn’t appear to be mine.

Subjectivity9

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

I cannot be pinned myself down to any “ism” whatsoever.

“I Am Spirit,”

Spiritualism?

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

or said slightly differently, “I Am Self.”

Egoism (which should not be confused with the similar term, "egotism")?

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

I am no long trapped within concepts. Mind uses its concepts as a way to control. Spirit doesn't play the game called control.

A few questions:

1) If mind uses concepts as a way to control, what does spirit actually do?

2) How are mind and spirit separated?

3) Is spirit a concept, or is it a thing?

3a) If it is a thing, why can it
not be measured, weighed, or seen?

3b) If it is a concept, does it not follow that it is a product of the mind
and subject to the mind's control?


Hasta con queso,
TTM

[richrf]

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

Rich,

Okay, I first thought that by Zhi you meant Chi, but that didn’t jive with my ideas about Free Will.

Next I Googled ‘Zhi,meaning’ and got answers like Zhi means: abides or influences on multiple levels, or to know, intelligence, will, intention, emotion, even to set in order. This didn’t surprise me because I am familiar with the Chinese way of making words so multi-purposed. But,

Here I am back wondering what your idea of Zhi’s meaning is. Details please.

I am using Zhi in the sense of intention. In other words, one aspect of the human being is the ability to freely choose direction with intention. Of course, all choices are influenced by all of the other forces (intentions) that surround us. So we can choose to go in a particular direction, but we may or may not get there depending upon outside influences.

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

Even collecting the information is like a pop. Pop, I collect this piece of information. Pop, I add this piece of information. Pop, I correspond these two with each other in this particular way. It’s like a light show, all smoke and mirrors, with thoughts popping all over the place. We are just along for the ride. If there is “Will” involved, it certainly doesn’t appear to be mine.

Subjectivity9

Yes, our Yi (Mind) collects information (Pop, Pop), and then based upon the info and experiences, and other factors, e.g. feelings, we make a decision to move in a particular direction (Zhi). Zhi would be the Free Will to make a decision on which direction to go.

Rich

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

Are these the rules by which you pilot an automobile to a specific destination?

It is called "the mystery ride". A mystery even to the driver.

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

It is called "the mystery ride". A mystery even to the driver.

I imagine it would be called "a harrowing ride" to a passenger.

[richrf]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

It is called "the mystery ride". A mystery even to the driver.

There are no rules. And there are no correct ways. There are no right or wrong ways. Sometimes I go this way, for a scenic ride, sometimes that way for a quick drive. Sometimes I have to change direction because of construction. Sometimes I can't even get there. There are no correct ways. Just me finding a way to do this or to that - which can change at any time.

Rich

[GoshisDead]

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

Hey GoshisDead,

I am sure that you believe that you are not enlightened, at least as you presently define enlightenment.

As I currently define it? I noted that I don't know what it is. If I am already being then all I have to do is define it as what I already am? So when someone decides to say "hey I'm good enough as I am" they have suddenly become enlightened? Seems the only real way to not take a journey of betterment (figurative or literal).

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

Saying that you hope that humility is a prerequisite to enlightenment is the same as saying that you hope most men are disallowed from being IN enlightenment.

This is saying nothing of the sort. Don't most mystical traditions allow for the folly of pride? Cycle of rebirth, repentance, resitution etc... Are you not allowing for learning in your tradition, whatver it may be? Doesn't one have to relinquish their pride in order to notice that they are, or is it back to a matter of definition and semantics?

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

This figurative journey of yours, I believe, is seeing the jiva as a fix-it-up project. We all believe this at some point.

If at some point we all believe this before we are enlightened then we are all at some point at figurative point/state A, a transcendence of whatever sort happens then we are at point/state B. Unless there is no transcendence or duration we have been on a journey, in in my case still am on a journey. In order for the sage to laugh out loud when s/he Awakens to the truth, s/he had to have been asleep.

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by richrf

There are no rules. And there are no correct ways. There are no right or wrong ways.

This seems like an excellent strategy for absolving oneself of responsibility for one's actions.

I may have to try this sometime at work when my boss tries to tell me I screwed something up, or better yet when I am driving, drunk of course, backwards down a one-way street in a residential area and firing my .357 magnum randomly out the window.

My concern though is that I would be marginalizing myself somehow by adopting this philosophy. Thoughts?

[Subjectivity9]

HI GoshisDead,

Let me start off with an apology, because I seem to be frustrating the heck out of you. I see you as a true seeker and I certainly don’t want to, through some lack in my own ability to explain, make things harder for you in any way. It hasn’t been that long, that I don’t remember my own painful frustration.

The word Enlightenment has so much baggage. Perhaps that is why I prefer the word Spirit, or Presence. Enlightenment seems to point at some destination or some goal, it makes you think that it requires some change taking place. It is not really like that. When you know yourself, the Self you are right now and always, you know Spirit because they are one and the same. Spirit is so subtle that some have said it is similar to the feeling of breathing in and breathing out, a feeling that is always within awareness but pretty much in the background and unnoticed.

Much as we at times try to force breath, when breath is purely capable of taking care of itself, we also try to force awareness of Spirit. This is not necessary.

Although you say that you don’t know what enlightenment is, you are also quite sure that you are not enlightened. How can you be so sure? Can you accept the possibility that a journey of betterment is like “barking up the wrong tree?” This is what receptivity is all about.

Most mystical traditions are all about folly. They tell us about all of things that people like the Buddha did until He gave up on the concept of progress.

This is definitely not a matter of semantics. Trying to speak about something that can’t be said adequately, and using a dualistic language to speak of the dimension of ‘One’ is a real bear. I do this because it was done for me, and for some reason I feel drawn to you more than most.

I used to sit with a Spiritual friend on the back porch, and speak with him for hours over many years on these things. These truths seem to seep into us more like insights than logical conclusions. You like myself will continue to try to think yourself free. It can’t be helped. I did it. But at the same time, I must continue to tell you the complete truth as I know it. Much of this is paradoxical.

Subjectivity9

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

I imagine it would be called "a harrowing ride" to a passenger.

Yes. That too......

---------- Post added 09-24-2009 at 08:33 PM ----------

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

This seems like an excellent strategy for absolving oneself of responsibility for one's actions.

I may have to try this sometime at work when my boss tries to tell me I screwed something up, or better yet when I am driving, drunk of course, backwards down a one-way street in a residential area and firing my .357 magnum randomly out the window.

My concern though is that I would be marginalizing myself somehow by adopting this philosophy. Thoughts?

Yes. And he tells you that there are no right and wrong ways. I wonder whether he thinks that what he say is right? Does he really mean that when he drives home there is no difference in what route he takes. Not even if it leads away from home? So that driving home is not driving home? The question really is whether what he says makes any sense. I vote, no.