Know Thyself?

[Subjectivity9]

GoshisDead,

The mind is a doing thing. Doing humility is a kind of doing. Trying not to do is also a kind of doing. It is circular. Mind is circular.

Enlightenment is outside of mind. (Transcendent) What can the mind do to get outside of the mind?

So yes, pursuit of any kind is also a doing.

We don’t arrive at enlightenment like it is some kind of a prize for DOING something right.

Knowing this your mind can only conclude that it is impossible. Yet somewhere deep inside you know that it isn’t. You know that enlightenment IS you.

Subjectivity9

[GoshisDead]

Like I said, I'm not enlightened. I don't even know what it means. How can I know what it means if I am not it. Humility is not a does it is an is. Humility is in and of itself transcendent. Humility is not a natural human state, I would hope that it is a prerequisit for enlightenment. If in fact I have but to stop I would first have to be humble enough to recognize my short comings and relinquish my ego that is driving me on the figurative journey. If I am and already am my ego is not me, it is a shadow of me eclipsing the me that is. I don't do humility, to do humility is to consciously and with will force myself to act as if I were something, to be humble is simply to be.

[richrf]

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

Are these the rules by which you pilot an automobile to a specific destination?

Sometimes. I gather information and then I go. But if I see a traffic starting to build or things don't look right I might spontaneously decide to move in a different direction. Meanwhile, I am sometimes amazed how some drivers will stay the course no matter what is happening around them. Gut feel has been very useful in my life. Sometimes, it is all one has.

Rich

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by richrf

Sometimes. I gather information and then I go. But if I see a traffic starting to build or things don't look right I might spontaneously decide to move in a different direction. Meanwhile, I am sometimes amazed how some drivers will stay the course no matter what is happening around them. Gut feel has been very useful in my life. Sometimes, it is all one has.

Rich

When you gather information, are you sorting it in some manner into different categories such as correct information and incorrect information?

When you say, "things don't look right," how do you make this determination if you cannot, as you claim, make a judgement between true and false?

As far as "gut feel" goes, I've read Gavin de Becker, so you don't need to sell me on the validity of instinct or intuition. I've experienced it as well. However, saying that one has "a gut feeling" about something is just a figure of speech, a cliche, even. Data interpreted in the brain is the responsible party, whether conscious or subconscious.

[richrf]

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

When you gather information, are you sorting it in some manner into different categories such as correct information and incorrect information?

No, because I have no idea what is correct and incorrect. I attribute this to a life time worth of experience in dealing with people. Everyone has their biases and their beliefs - particularly when it comes to the stock market and the fastest way to travel to a destination.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

When you say, "things don't look right," how do you make this determination if you cannot, as you claim, make a judgement between true and false?

It is a feeling.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

As far as "gut feel" goes, I've read Gavin de Becker, so you don't need to sell me on the validity of instinct or intuition. I've experienced it as well. However, saying that one has "a gut feeling" about something is just a figure of speech, a cliche, even. Data interpreted in the brain is the responsible party, whether conscious or subconscious.

Maybe. I don't think so. It is just one of those things that everyone experiences in life and science wishes to deny because it just doesn't fit well into their materialistic belief system. This is what I call filtering information to achieve a specific goal and conclusion. We all do it. Scientists are different in that they don't realize that they are doing it.

Rich

[Subjectivity9]

Hey Rich,

I think that Alan Watts would agree with you that ‘decision-making’ is a kind/of spontaneity, even when you believe yourself to be thinking things out in an organized fashion before deciding. Our mind is drawn like a magnet to the strongest stimulation.

If you are deciding what to have for supper and someone stabs you with a knife, you immediately forget supper. So it is with most all of life.

TT Man,

We only think that we are in charge of outcomes. We may hope. We may intend. But this mental life where we live is far too complex for us to control. So rules are like favorite toys.

Subjectivity9

[richrf]

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

Hey Rich,

I think that Alan Watts would agree with you that ‘decision-making’ is a kind/of spontaneity, even when you believe yourself to be thinking things out in an organized fashion before deciding. Our mind is drawn like a magnet to the strongest stimulation.

If you are deciding what to have for supper and someone stabs you with a knife, you immediately forget supper. So it is with most all of life.

TT Man,

We only think that we are in charge of outcomes. We may hope. We may intend. But this mental life where we live is far too complex for us to control. So rules are like favorite toys.

Subjectivity9

I agree. We collect information and then POP! we make a decision whether to go this way or that. In Western Philosophy it is called Free Will. In Chinese metaphysics it is called the Zhi (Will).
Rich

[Subjectivity9]

Hey GoshisDead,

I am sure that you believe that you are not enlightened, at least as you presently define enlightenment.

This is a very subtle discovery, this enlightenment/Spirit. We overlook ‘Spirit’ constantly. It isn’t that we don’t see ‘It.’ ‘Spirit’ is obvious. We actually see ‘It’ all of the time. We simply don’t know what we are looking at.

Perhaps this is why so many masters on Awakening to the Truth, laugh out loud.

So perhaps the real question might be, if “I Am It” or (If I Am Spirit) why can’t I know this right now?

I believe the simplest answer has to be, because of “Wrongful Identification.” (Buddhist)

Isn’t humility actually the opposite of pride?

I agree for the most part, that pure unadulterated humility is not a natural human state. If anything, arrogance seems to be the horse we ride. We certainly like to see ourselves as being in charge. Perhaps this is why we have so much trouble giving up our hold on the reins.

Saying that you hope that humility is a prerequisite to enlightenment is the same as saying that you hope most men are disallowed from being IN enlightenment.

Pride can certainly be an ugly animal. So I can understand your not wanting to arrive in enlightenment only to find it there with you.


Being “humble enough to recognize my short comings and relinquish my ego” is based upon your present idea that the jiva must in some way be ‘perfected’ in order to have or to OWN enlightenment. Said differently, you do not believe that you in your present state are enough, (or worthy.)

The perfection of the jiva isn’t possible, because what we really mean by perfection of the jiva is to turn it into Spirit. Jiva never becomes Spirit. We simply witness that we are wrong in believing that we are jiva. We see that we are already Spirit. (Pure and Simple)

This figurative journey of yours, I believe, is seeing the jiva as a fix-it-up project. We all believe this at some point.

Yes, you ego is not you. It is a mental fabrication.

A shadow could only eclipse you from yourself if you were separated from yourself in some way. Separation is a big lie.

It is the mind that plays over here and over there. Spirit is the only Here.

Subjectivity9

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by richrf

No, because I have no idea what is correct and incorrect. I attribute this to a life time worth of experience in dealing with people.

But you have no idea if by saying this you are correct or incorrect.

Or are you saying that your inability to determine what is correct or incorrect has come about as a result of a lifetime of dealing with people? Your syntax has confused me.

Originally Posted by richrf

Everyone has their biases and their beliefs

Does this include you?

If so, how do you reconcile this statement with your previous statement where you said that you have no idea what is correct and incorrect? By saying "Everyone has their biases and their beliefs," are you not asserting that this is your belief, formed by your own observations of people? Is a belief, much like faith, not related to the principles of correctness and incorrectness in order to make it, well, something worth believing or having faith in?

Perhaps you are excluding yourself from your own observations? If so, why?

If I am to take what you seem to be saying at face value, I'm left with the conclusion that you have no idea whatsoever why you believe what you believe at any given moment regardless of your position in time and space as either the observer or the observed. In short, you seem to be living in a permanent state of tabula rasa, a continually self-erasing blackboard, in essence.

Originally Posted by richrf

I have no idea what is correct and incorrect.

One wonders how you would dance the Samba or Salsa (which you've noted elsewhere that you personally enjoy) if you did not believe there was a correct and incorrect way of going about doing things. There is a correct way of doing the Samba, is there not? Yes, obviously you must infuse the dance with a certain passion, or feeling, but if you do not follow certain correct patterns, aren't you just gyrating spastically in a random fashion?

And what of Tai Chi, which you have said that you teach. If you have no idea of what is correct and incorrect, what are you teaching your students? The old masters admonish that you risk damaging yourself if the movements are performed incorrectly. If I happened to be one of your students and I asked you how the Tai Chi movement entitled "Repulse the Monkey" was performed would you tell me to just do it however I felt like doing it?

Originally Posted by richrf

Maybe. I don't think so.

So in other words, you think that what I said might be incorrect, that is, the opposite of correct.

Originally Posted by richrf

This is what I call filtering information to achieve a specific goal and conclusion.

How is this different (other than perhaps semantically) than when I asked you, "when you gather information, are you sorting it in some manner into different categories such as correct information and incorrect information?"

Wait, I'm re-reading what you said. I think what you must mean by "filtering information to achieve a specific goal and conclusion," is that you are indicating a foregone or predetermined goal or conclusion, or in other words that you are running your incoming data though some sort of filter so it will match a preconceived notion. Is that it?

If so, that's odd, because that's what some people seem to be accusing science of doing. How puzzling. Again, it seems to indicate a belief that one group is correct, while the other is incorrect.

Originally Posted by richrf

Scientists are different in that they don't realize that they are doing it.

What is it then that they think they are doing? Never mind. See above. To use the vernacular, "my bad."

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

TT Man,

We only think that we are in charge of outcomes. We may hope. We may intend. But this mental life where we live is far too complex for us to control.

So are you a Determinist, an Indeterminist, or just a garden variety Fatalist?

Originally Posted by Subjectivity9

So rules are like favorite toys.

You're going to have to explain this simile to me, as I have no idea what you are trying to convey with it.

Originally Posted by richrf

I agree. We collect information and then POP! we make a decision whether to go this way or that. In Western Philosophy it is called Free Will. In Chinese metaphysics it is called the Zhi (Will).

You can't possibly agree. That would indicate a judgement of correctness, the opposite of incorrectness.
Also, I can't see anything in Subjectivity9's post that corresponds with your reference to either free will or Zhi.



Everlastingly confused,
TTMan

[richrf]

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

But you have no idea if by saying this you are correct or incorrect. Or are you saying that your inability to determine what is correct or incorrect has come about as a result of a lifetime of dealing with people? Your syntax has confused me.

Yep. Everyone says something different. If I tried to figure out what is correct, I would go crazy. I collect information, compare it to my own experiences, and make a judgment on how to proceed. There is no correct. It is just the option I chose.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

Does this include you?

Of course. Anyone who reads my posts knows my biases and beliefs. I don't try to pretend to be unbiased for appearances sake.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

If so, how do you reconcile this statement with your previous statement where you said that you have no idea what is correct and incorrect? By saying "Everyone has their biases and their beliefs," are you not asserting that this is your belief, formed by your own observations of people?

Yes.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

Is a belief, much like faith, not related to the principles of correctness and incorrectness in order to make it, well, something worth believing or having faith in?

It is a belief, subject to change.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

Perhaps you are excluding yourself from your own observations? If so, why?

No. I am human like everyone else.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

If I am to take what you seem to be saying at face value, I'm left with the conclusion that you have no idea whatsoever why you believe what you believe at any given moment regardless of your position in time and space as either the observer or the observed. In short, you seem to be living in a permanent state of tabula rasa, a continually self-erasing blackboard, in essence.

I just told you what I believe. And I told you how I make decisions. POP! It happens after I formulate my beliefs.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

One wonders how you would dance the Samba or Salsa (which you've noted elsewhere that you personally enjoy) if you did not believe there was a correct and incorrect way of going about doing things.

If you have ever danced, then you would know that everyone dances differently, and actually on different beats depending upon how the music is moving them.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

There is a correct way of doing the Samba, is there not?

Nope. It is a very individualistic dance. Everyone hears something different and they express themselves. It is an art.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

Yes, obviously you must infuse the dance with a certain passion, or feeling, but if you do not follow certain correct patterns, aren't you just gyrating spastically in a random fashion?

I feel the music and I dance to it.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

And what of Tai Chi, which you have said that you teach. If you have no idea of what is correct and incorrect,

Nope. I tell my students that this is my interpretation. I am not dogmatic and I encourage my students to experiment. Develop their own feeling.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

what are you teaching your students?

My understanding of Tai Chi.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

The old masters admonish that you risk damaging yourself if the movements are performed incorrectly.

Nope. You only may hurt yourself if you are not relaxed while trying to conform to rigid guidelines. Rigidity is what causes injury.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

If I happened to be one of your students and I asked you how the Tai Chi movement entitled "Repulse the Monkey" was performed would you tell me to just do it however I felt like doing it?

No, I show them my interpretation, but I also tell them that other teachers teach it differently. One of the things I learned while hopping around is that everyone teaches it differently, and everyone thinks they are right - except for me of course.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

So in other words, you think that what I said might be incorrect, that is, the opposite of correct.

I have no idea.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

How is this different (other than perhaps semantically) than when I asked you, "when you gather information, are you sorting it in some manner into different categories such as correct information and incorrect information?"

I am not sorting anything or categorizing. I am assimilating. It just comes into my consciousness as it may.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

or in other words that you are running your incoming data though some sort of filter so it will match a preconceived notion. Is that it?

Yes.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

If so, that's odd, because that's what some people seem to be accusing science of doing. How puzzling. Again, it seems to indicate a belief that one group is correct, while the other is incorrect.

I think everyone has their beliefs. Some are more aware of them than others.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

So are you a Determinist, an Indeterminist, or just a garden variety Fatalist?

An explorer and detective.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

You can't possibly agree. That would indicate a judgement of correctness, the opposite of incorrectness.

A belief that is subject to change.

Originally Posted by TickTockMan

Also, I can't see anything in Subjectivity9's post that corresponds with your reference to either free will or Zhi.

It is that POP! when you make a decision.

Rich