Miracles

[Binyamin Tsadik]

According to Quantum Physics there is a chance that a person can walk through a wall. It may happen once in a billion lifetimes of the universe, but the probablity exists.
Therefore, if someone were to walk through a wall today, it would not be considered a Miracle.
However, if you were being chased by a man with a gun and he cornered you and you walked through the wall and were saved, this is what is known as a miracle.
A Miracle is not something outside of Science.
It is an improbable occurence that occurs with intelligence.

If the Red Sea were to part today, it would therefore not be a miracle. It is a natural Phenomina that occurs every few thousand years. But the fact that it split at the exact time when a nation was surrounded by another nation about to be slaughtered, shows intent and changes the natural event to the level of a Miracle.

Probability decreases when confined to a specific time and place and is thus far more improbable.

[jgweed]

It seems that there are two conditions for an event to be miraculous. First, it must contravene the observed laws of nature that operate in the universe, and second, its agent or cause must be outside the universe.

[Zetetic11235]

Originally Posted by jgweed

It seems that there are two conditions for an event to be miraculous. First, it must contravene the observed laws of nature that operate in the universe, and second, its agent or cause must be outside the universe.

Its agent must be of similar nature as the universe in order that it can interact with it, and it also must intersect in some way with the universe in order to exact influence, so we are still talking about somthing which at least shares components with the physical and observable, and all things which are physical and observable are the domain of science. To the extent that we can experience the influence of said agent, it exists for us, and thus it is a subject of the sciences. Science is an adaptive framework which attempts to explain relationally all that affects us, thus so too shall it explain miracles.

There is nothing which exerts influence upon us that is not within or potentially within the domain of the sciences, and if a thing does not or cannot influence us in any way then it does not exist until it can influence us or does, this is the definition of existence.

[Binyamin Tsadik]

Miracles do not go against the laws of nature.
Is the Limitless perfection unable to work within the rules of Limit in order to accomplish a specific task?

If you say that Miracles do not act within the laws of the world, you are saying that the Limitless perfection must break the laws in order to accomplish the Miracle.

It is a far greater feat to plan Miracles from the time of creation and have them come about at exact specific times

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by Binyamin Tsadik

Miracles do not go against the laws of nature.
Is the Limitless perfection unable to work within the rules of Limit in order to accomplish a specific task?

If you say that Miracles do not act within the laws of the world, you are saying that the Limitless perfection must break the laws in order to accomplish the Miracle.

It is a far greater feat to plan Miracles from the time of creation and have them come about at exact specific times

This may interest you. (Note especially the distinction made between the marvelous, and the miraculous).

The Marvelous and Miraculous: A Defense of Hume

[SummyF]

Originally Posted by Binyamin Tsadik

Miracles do not go against the laws of nature.
Is the Limitless perfection unable to work within the rules of Limit in order to accomplish a specific task?

If you say that Miracles do not act within the laws of the world, you are saying that the Limitless perfection must break the laws in order to accomplish the Miracle.

It is a far greater feat to plan Miracles from the time of creation and have them come about at exact specific times

so then the power , would have been in a different dimension to create this miracle?

and if these miracles were created during the time of creation would they be considered miracles

or just odd times that are rare, but planned

or maybe these "mircales" are one of the more rare things that happen on earth,

like an eclipse

[Binyamin Tsadik]

Hume makes a connection between prophecy and Miracle when infact the two must not be connected. The Marvelous is not a Miracle unless it has divine purpose.

SummyF:
I dont know what "Different Dimention" Refers to. In the words of the Torah "There is nothing but Him". And according to the Sages "He is not a place in the world, but the world is a place in Him"

An eclipse is a natural phenomina that has a high probability of occuring and does not really change or effect the course of history. Its interaction is very limited within our conscious lives (Astrologically it is very significant).

Think of the Universe as your body. If you want to change something you reach out and change it. The Miracle comes about within the laws of the Universe. It is the Universe itself (As a body) that causes the Miracle. The Limitless Will is what causes the Universe to act in the same way as your mind controls your body.

Example: You missed the bus today. Ordinary occurrence correct? Nothing magnificent. But the bus crashes and no one is killed, and the seat that you normally sit in was destroyed, but luckily no one was in it.

Now the fact that you missed the bus was a Miracle. If the bus had not crashed that might have also been a Miracle, but no one would have known that the Limitless Will prevented the bus from crashing in the first place. It would have appeared as an ordinary day. The Miracle was brought about so that you would realize that it was a Miracle.

Take it even further. Why did you miss the bus? Your alarm mysteriously didn't go off. Or you were up late the night before volunteering in a soup kitchen.

A miracle is less what happened and more when and where it happened and the result or purpose of the occurence. A rare occurence cannot be a miracle unless it has a purpose to it.

[SummyF]

Ic,

do you know if this application of god? is in the other abrahamic religions?

[Binyamin Tsadik]

Originally Posted by SummyF

Ic,

do you know if this application of god? is in the other abrahamic religions?

I dont know about Islam, but Christianity may disagree. Christianity beleives in the aspect of "Performing Miracles". I laugh at the rediculousness of it. If a miracle is an act of God, then how can a Human perform one?
Jewish Philosophy calls this "Magic" and does not deny the fact that it exists but does not call it miraculous.

However, Jewish Philosophy is the source of Christianity and thus if Christianity contradicts it, then it is most likely because of some Pope at some point in time that decided that this was the Christian beleif.

Many Christian beleifs were adapted from Paganism such as the concept of the Devil.

Jewish Philosophy acknowledges the fact that there is a created force known as the Satan, but does not place it outside of the Limitless' Will. The Satan does not oppose the Will of the Limitless! The Satan performs the Will of the Limitless and was created to behave in this way for a specific purpose. If the Limitless decided that the Satan should no longer function, then it is fully within Its power to end the Satan's existance.

There is no reason, however, that a Christian or a Muslim should disagree with this definition of a Miracle. If there is any disagreement it is not textual, but based on the common consensus.

[democritus]

Hello everybody,

What does the introductory comment by Binyamin Tsadik on 22/09/2008 say about "Miracle"?

Miracle = a very rare event in a particular time and place and with intelligence or intend. [ON DEMAND really - according to the definition in the comment above]

Some events are unheard of and called "very rare events" [it is true]

a very rare event may be just a "very rare event" [if it happens by accident]

a very rare event may be called a "miracle" [if it happens on demand]

Let us say X = A man walked through the wall = a very rare event in particular time and location [according to the commentary above]

Let us say Y = Red Sea crossing = a very rare event in particular time and location [according to the commentary above]

Xa = Miracle [if there is a will]
Xb = Not Miracle [if there is not a known will]

Ya = Miracle [if there is a will]
Yb = Not Miracle [if there is not a known will]

In order to talk about miracles, which -by definition- requires intelligence/intend or "will", we need to prove that this “will” is the cause of that particular event.

Now, the onus on the claimer's shoulder to prove without doubt that, there is a miracle and in this particular miracle -the very rare event- happened because of the "will" of the instigator.

Until now, no reliable evidence have been provided to justify the claim that a "miracle" has actually happened.