Is Truth Invented or Discovered?

[amist]

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that it's not worth calling contingent 'truths' we have evidence for in the actual world 'truths' because by its definition truth implies certainty and I feel the label information fits better.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by amist

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that it's not worth calling contingent 'truths' we have evidence for in the actual world 'truths' because by its definition truth implies certainty and I feel the label information fits better.

But, as I have pointed out, truth does not imply certainty, since there may be many truths that are not certain. For example, Either it is true or it is false that there is intelligent life on other planets. But, of course, no one is certain which it is, true of false (i.e. true that it is false). So that is an example of a truth that is not certain. Therefore, there are truths that are not certain. The above is an argument that shows that some truths are not certain. Have you an objection to that argument. It is not an objection simply to deny it.

[amist]

We cannot say anything about the truth value of the statement 'there is intelligent life on other planets'. Certainly the statement does have a truth value, but all I'm saying is that if you don't know what it is, don't claim to.

[Fido]

Originally Posted by Reconstructo

Is truth made or found? Are philosophers/scientist inventors of tools or lifters of curtains?

Both...What one makes another discovers, and one persons discovery is made into new forms by others...I used to build buildings... One day it was not there to some infrequent passer by, and then it was... What I helped to make was in no small part truth, and yet my labor was another person's discovery...

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by amist

We cannot say anything about the truth value of the statement 'there is intelligent life on other planets'. Certainly the statement does have a truth value, but all I'm saying is that if you don't know what it is, don't claim to.

I didn't claim to know what the truth value is. I just pointed out that either it is true or not true that there is intelligent life on other planets, but that neither is certain. Therefore truth does not imply certainty. What I think you may have in mind is not that truth implies certainty, but that when a person claims that something is true, that person usually (unless he is being insincere) feels certain about his claim. But, of course, that is something very different from saying that truth implies certainty. If is that claiming truth often suggests the person who is claiming it, feels sure it is true. There is an important different bewteen claiming that p is true, and p being true. Don't confuse the claim with what is being claimed.

---------- Post added 02-09-2010 at 07:53 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Fido

Both...What one makes another discovers, and one persons discovery is made into new forms by others...I used to build buildings... One day it was not there to some infrequent passer by, and then it was... What I helped to make was in no small part truth, and yet my labor was another person's discovery...

I thought you helped to make a building, not truth. Am I mistaken?

[amist]

However if you are saying something is true, your are implying that it is just that, true, without qualification, 100% certain. I'm not saying there is no truth outside what is epistemically certain, I'm just saying that you can't say that a certain thing is true unless you are epistemically certain. Jesus you're nitpicking on so many levels I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by amist

However if you are saying something is true, your are implying that it is just that, true, without qualification, 100% certain. I'm not saying there is no truth outside what is epistemically certain, I'm just saying that you can't say that a certain thing is true unless you are epistemically certain. Jesus you're nitpicking on so many levels I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore.

Saying (or claiming) something is true is, as I said, a whole different kettle of fish from the something being true. You can say or claim p is true, and p not be true. Or you can say or claim that p is not true, and p be true anyway. Some people think that what they say is true is 100% certain, I suppose. They are called "dogmatists". But some people have, what David Hume called a tincture of skepticism. They realize how fallible people are, and realize that people cannot be 100% certain about anything. After all, "to err is human". But the thing to remember is that although when you claim that a statement is true, you may feel 100% certain that it is true, that does not mean that the statement you are claiming is true is 100% certain. Always distinguish between the claim, and what is being claimed. It is a mistake to confuse them. as you have been doing. After all, A may claim that God exists, and B. may claim that God does not exist. Both may be 100% certain that there respective claims are true. But, of course, since both their claims cannot be true, one of the claims cannot be 100% certain. You can see that, I know. Maybe, in the light of my arguments, you ought to rethink your view.

[amist]

Saying (or claiming) something is true is, as I said, a whole different kettle of fish from the something being truth.

Yeah, I remember from the last 10 times you said it. And then the next 5 times you said it in this post, I caught those too. The truth is indubitable if it has been truly discovered, that's really all I'm trying to claim here. I never once denied that there were contingent truths. You just can't claim to know one because they're incredibly uncertain to the human subject. Now, I would say 'if you're done ranting now could we please get back to the thread', but the entirety of this thread has been eaten up by you foaming at the mouth like a rabid dog because of some perceived misunderstanding of the word 'truth'. So I guess we should get the thread started?

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by amist

Yeah, I remember from the last 10 times you said it. And then the next 5 times you said it in this post, I caught those too. The truth is indubitable if it has been truly discovered, that's really all I'm trying to claim here. I never once denied that there were contingent truths. You just can't claim to know one because they're incredibly uncertain to the human subject. Now, I would say 'if you're done ranting now could we please get back to the thread', but the entirety of this thread has been eaten up by you foaming at the mouth like a rabid dog because of some perceived misunderstanding of the word 'truth'. So I guess we should get the thread started?

The truth is not indubitable even if it has been truly discovered, since whether the Nile is the longest river in Africa is dubitable. It is possible to doubt it. But, to our best information, of course, it is true. I imagine lots of people do not know that the Nile is the longest river in Africa. Don't you?
Why can't I know a contingent truth. Not because they may be uncertain, because that assumes we cannot know a truth that might be false. But that the Nile is the longest river in Africa might be false, but we know it,since it happens to be true. If you believe that you cannot know unless you are certain (which you seem to believe) have you an argument for that belief? Let me repeat a distinction I have already made. You cannot know if what you believe you know is false. But that is no reason to think that you cannot know if what you believe you know might be false. There is a big difference between something being false, and the possibility of its being false, Since, if it is possible it is false, then it is also possible that it is true. I thought the thread was started. It is clear, of course, that no truths are invented, and all truths are discovered, since to say of something that it is an invented truth is to say of it that it is a lie, and not really a truth at all. For example, Hitler invented the truth that Jews were inferior beings. That means that it is not true that Jews are inferior beings. It is a lie. Germany invented the truth that it was attacked by Poland in 1939. Which means that it was not true that Germany was attacked by Poland in 1939. It was a lie. So, invented truths are lies, and therefore, they are not true. Therefore, there are no invented truths.

[amist]

I'm going to respond to this thread one more time.

The truth is not indubitable even if it has been truly discovered, since whether the Nile is the longest river in Africa is dubitable.

Oh yeah, I can't think of anything more certain in the world than the Nile being the longest river in Africa. Oh wait, I remember now, logic and mathematical truths, and my own subjective experience.

Why can't I know a contingent truth. Not because they may be uncertain, because that assumes we cannot know a truth that might be false.

I am going to say this one last time. If it is uncertain, I don't think you should be claiming it is the truth. Contingent truths are often highly dubitable, such as historical 'facts', which get overturned all of the time for instance. It's not knowledge, it's just information.