Having a philosophical discussion

[Holiday20310401]

I try to have debates in the class with my friends but do not find myself with people who are informed or even care for philosophy. I did a presentation on Auto Wreck, the poem by Karl Sapiro and presented an analysis of how metaphysics played a big part in explaining the situation of a car accident. I wanted to prove Karl wrong from one of the quotes in the poem, "cancels our physics with a sneer" showing that physics is feasible to explain the poem. I talked about randomness, causality, it's link with the universe as time and gravity, and then to a fundamental sense that was relevant in this case able to create a correlation between the above themes and morality with reality.
Do you believe that philosophy belongs in schools. Contradicting people's views who have gained dignity of influence seems harsh to teachers I find, so that sort of writing 'doesn't count for marks'. And how do you get a class interested in listening to rants about such topics?

[Justin]

Hmm... good question. You may have used some words that they don't understand. One thing that is important is to start where they are, not where you expect them to be. Most of us were raised to believe in what our parents believe and that's just the way it is. So using examples that they can relate to, to make your point would be much better than complicated semantics can describe. Start where they are. Keep it simple and don't over complicate it with terminology that loses people.

Very few people I hang out with are interested in Philosophy. It's a shame.

[Arjen]

Hi Holiday20310401, I would like to say that such discussins are not tolerated in schools 99% of the time. Not even when studying philosophy. Even at times the intent of the teachers may be to stimulate discussion, a lack of time due to very few college hours forbids it. At tests one cannot answer truthfully because tests require the repetition of the teachers words so all that is left is you and a textbook. I have often witnessed classmates of mine with a very good understanding of the subjects flunking while others, witless of the deeper meenings, passed with flying colors because they merely repeated words. In that sense thinking is not promoted in schools, indoctrination is.

I have personally come to be very skeptic of schools because of such workings. It appears as if one is rewarded for saying the wrong things; just as in life corruption is rewarded with high offices. School does prove to be a good training for that though.

[Khethil]

... it's almost as if it takes a certain personality type/mentality to "get into" the mindset that philosophy is. I had a friend who referred to philosophy as (if you'll excuse the term) 'mental masturbation'. It's almost as if either you're interested, or you're not; like something that can't be learned, a taste that isn't acquired.

I wish more did... what I wouldn't give to have folks in my area who wouldn't mind getting together every once in a while to bat around such topics (beer involved, of course) *sigh*

[VideCorSpoon]

Holiday20310401,

Philosophy belongs in school, but I think it belongs in a specific level of school. If you don't have sufficient knowledge gained by years of compounded knowledge, you end up blowing hot unsubstantiated air. Its stinks because people who are interested in philosophy aren't really interested in philosophy, but again just like to blow hot air. I am glad to say that alot of people who comment on philosphyforum are genuinely interested in philosophy so its really refreshing.

But I am very interested in your second question, How do you get a class interested in listening to rants about such topics? Gimmicks… that’s it… Gimmicks.

There are a few things to keep in mind.

Keep in mind that you are dealing with a group of people that do not share your affinity for philosophy and that type of abstract thought. They would rather do anything except that. You are dealing with a disinterested crowd.

Keep in mind that you are also dealing with people who have their own particular views, though they may be wrong. You are dealing with a stubborn crowd as well.

Also keep in mind that when you speak in an advanced way and understand things in a more advanced way, others will display a series of emotions in which may resemble disdain or jealousy and will see your comments and even your very embodiment as a person as a preacher preaching at a pulpit. No one likes to be preached to in an unwelcome way. So you are also dealing with a hostile crowd.

So how do you deal with a disinterested, stubborn, and hostile crowd?

Isolate the one feature that you feel the class is. Say the class is click-ish, that is, there is a person or group of alpha students who possess more popularity than you. Appeal to these alpha students with a topic that may be beneficial or interesting to them. Some may say that appealing to these types of people is ridiculous, but keep in mind it is they who possess the power and you who does not. You cannot break that rule… but you can bend it. If you cannot find a subject within the realm of philosophy, link a topic with something everybody would want to listen to. Use gimmicks like, money, sex, cars, power, etc. They will listen.

When you convey your ideas once you have their partial attention, remember that they are stubborn, disinterested, and hostile. Do not preach, they will become hostile. Do not be to complex, they will become disinterested. Do not overly insist on an idea or talk “matter of fact”, they will be stubborn.

Be calm, relative, and personable and people will listen. However, the more favor you have with alpha students, the more you can display a more resilient philosophy.

If you possess that power yourself, you can talk until the cows come home and they have to listen to some extent and they'll call you "cool" at the end of the day.

[VideCorSpoon]

But all in all, I hope I don’t come off as trying to convey manipulative techniques. These are unspoken truths that should never be uttered as common fact.

As god said unto bender, “You know you’ve done something right when people don’t know you’ve done anything at all… like burning down a bar for the insurance money and making it look like an accident.”

[Arjen]

I would like to add that in the end the only one you are fooling is yourself. When people do not want to analyse their own intents and actions, they never will. No matter what package you put it in. There are very good reasons for that, all have to do with utilisation of things; a.k.a. "goals". People who do not want to analyse themselves (and because of that do not want to accurately analyse the world) are always involved in hypothetical reasonngs to better themselves.

Well, I am now crossing over to ethics I think...

Suffice to say there is a hypothetical way of doing things and a categorical way of doing things. Inmy opinion philosophers are more inclined to the categorical and the rest are more inclined to the hypothetical.. or at least that is the difference you are referring to. Unfortunately there are many people "labelled" philosopher who are really not because they are doing things in a hypothetical way. Those people are really sofists I think.

[urangutan]

With something like three thousand years of philosopy in print of which all cannot be considered great, how has life survived. I did like the term "mental masturbation", because that is what it is but comedy is the same, in its own profane way. Television and reading fiction are no different.

Maybe I view Plato, not in the terms of a great mind whose wisdom and tale, changed the way we think but as the man who convinced us we could think for ourselves once we knew how. Plato is not the man who orated, "The Republic". Plato is the person who in your life convinces you to challenge yourself. A good friend can convince you to face the fear of heights by BASE jumping. Just like a rafter, kyacker who shoots the rapids. He does not necessarily pick the easiest path, rather that which will challenge the most. The rocks, the rips and maelstroms are the dangers they face and also the challenge.
I often struggled in class, not because I couldn't understand the topic but that I simply reduce themes into a layman's rhetoric. It is a funny look on the face of a learned reader, when I could reduce Plato to a doped up petrol head in an analogy.

[VideCorSpoon]

Well said. Aristotle has a good spiel on knowledge and wisdom in Metaphysics alpha where he praises others that came before him like Homer and Hesiod because even though they were wrong in their theory, they thought in an abstract way that Aristotle cherished and utilized. But thats to say that Aristotle was right about his theories as well.

I also appreciate your emphasis on simplicity and abstract reduction. I said it in my very first post on philosophy forum, which is that stupid people use big words to make themselves sound smart. It is truly cogent to reduce suppositions posited within your particular normative framework. LOL!

[WhatIsEverything]

I to have tried this at my school. I discussed stuff like "what are we really?" and "I think everything is connected" nobody can follow. I wonder how many people can philosophically think like this. I think they should make it a subject in school.