Violence

[Ruthless Logic]

RuthlessLogic, your claim is too extreme to defend. There are obviously some cases where the use of drugs are beneficial. No one is claiming they are necessarily good, but they are obviously not necessarily more harmful than helpful.


I believe you are missing the point (or better yet, I am failing to make my self clear), I am not advocating the total non-use of drugs by individuals who clearly need them to survive. These people are already physically compromised, and consequently subjected to accelerated process of physical degradation by the processes of the Natural World. My point is engaging in a behavior (recreational drugs) that exposes an otherwise healthy individual, with the cognitive advantage of sobriety, by willfully exposing that individual to the disadvantages of artificial states-of mind that are simply not proven (sobriety is proven) by the arduous taskmaster of time (evolution).

[Aedes]

Originally Posted by Ruthless Logic

Phenytoin is a commonly prescribed anticonvulsant used to treat most types of ... of distal phalanges, impaired growth, and congenital heart defects.

What kind of nonsensical word salad are you cutting and pasting from?!

Used to treat most types of distal phalanges?! Do you know what distal phalanges are? They're the tips of your fingers and toes. That's it -- fingertips. So phenytoin is used to treat fingertips -- last I checked fingertips aren't a disease.

Phenytoin also does not treat "impaired growth" though it can cause it.

Finally, I've cared for I don't know hundreds of children with congenital heart defects, including at one of the world's largest pediatric heart transplant centers where I worked as a subspecialty fellow for the last three years. Can you name a single congenital heart defect without looking it up? Which one is treatable with phenytoin? Phenytoin is NOT used for congenital heart disease, though it CAN actually cause it if used in pregnancy. I just searched the National Library of Medicine and I found ONE article from 1982 in which phenytoin was used in a drug trial for cardiac arrhythmias. And that's it.

[Didymos Thomas]

I believe you are missing the point (or better yet, I am failing to make my self clear), I am not advocating the total non-use of drugs by individuals who clearly need them to survive.

Where do we draw the line on 'need to survive'? That's a pretty severe demand, eliminating almost everything, and at times everything, that we have.

These people are already physically compromised, and consequently subjected to accelerated process of physical degradation by the processes of the Natural World.

And what sort of standard could we possibly establish to determine 'physically compromised'? It's relatively easy to significantly impair one's self with over the counter drugs, but when used responsibly they do not seem to pose a terrible risk.

My point is engaging in a behavior (recreational drugs) that exposes an otherwise healthy individual, with the cognitive advantage of sobriety, by willfully exposing that individual to the disadvantages of artificial states-of mind that are simply not proven (sobriety is proven) by the arduous taskmaster of time (evolution).

What constitutes a healthy individual? It seems to me that healthy and unhealthy individuals often benefit from the recreational use of drugs. Take alcohol, for instance. The use of alcohol as been an important aspect of many cultures, and I do not mean to make an example of Roman gluttony. Alcohol has been, and is used, in religious ceremonies. The ability to produce alcohol allowed many early people to keep a longer lasting replacement to water.
As for cognitive advantages - what should we do with all of the other things that harm our cognitive functions if over used? Television is harmful to one's attention span.

Sobriety is proven. Let's clear this one up, too. Sobriety is not engaging in some activity, particularly the use of some drug. Nearly every culture on earth has some substance, or substances, which he uses for either recreational, spiritual, or medicinal purposes. I agree that the reckless consumption of anything is dangerous, but this does not mean that sobriety is somehow 'proven' and the responsible use of some drugs 'un-proven'.

[de Silentio]

What kind of nonsensical word salad are you cutting and pasting from?!

Used to treat most types of distal phalanges?! Do you know what distal phalanges are? They're the tips of your fingers and toes. That's it -- fingertips. So phenytoin is used to treat fingertips -- last I checked fingertips aren't a disease.

That is probably one of the funniest replies I have ever read on this forum.

(sorry to be off topic)

[Ruthless Logic]

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

Where do we draw the line on 'need to survive'? That's a pretty severe demand, eliminating almost everything, and at times everything, that we have.



And what sort of standard could we possibly establish to determine 'physically compromised'? It's relatively easy to significantly impair one's self with over the counter drugs, but when used responsibly they do not seem to pose a terrible risk.



What constitutes a healthy individual? It seems to me that healthy and unhealthy individuals often benefit from the recreational use of drugs. Take alcohol, for instance. The use of alcohol as been an important aspect of many cultures, and I do not mean to make an example of Roman gluttony. Alcohol has been, and is used, in religious ceremonies. The ability to produce alcohol allowed many early people to keep a longer lasting replacement to water.
As for cognitive advantages - what should we do with all of the other things that harm our cognitive functions if over used? Television is harmful to one's attention span.

Sobriety is proven. Let's clear this one up, too. Sobriety is not engaging in some activity, particularly the use of some drug. Nearly every culture on earth has some substance, or substances, which he uses for either recreational, spiritual, or medicinal purposes. I agree that the reckless consumption of anything is dangerous, but this does not mean that sobriety is somehow 'proven' and the responsible use of some drugs 'un-proven'.

Until you can master your immature contempt for all things rational, the access to the acquisition of understanding will escape you.

[Ruthless Logic]

Originally Posted by Aedes

What kind of nonsensical word salad are you cutting and pasting from?!

Used to treat most types of distal phalanges?! Do you know what distal phalanges are? They're the tips of your fingers and toes. That's it -- fingertips. So phenytoin is used to treat fingertips -- last I checked fingertips aren't a disease.

Phenytoin also does not treat "impaired growth" though it can cause it.

Finally, I've cared for I don't know hundreds of children with congenital heart defects, including at one of the world's largest pediatric heart transplant centers where I worked as a subspecialty fellow for the last three years. Can you name a single congenital heart defect without looking it up? Which one is treatable with phenytoin? Phenytoin is NOT used for congenital heart disease, though it CAN actually cause it if used in pregnancy. I just searched the National Library of Medicine and I found ONE article from 1982 in which phenytoin was used in a drug trial for cardiac arrhythmias. And that's it.

Distal Phalanges.....word salad? The disease process of osteoarthritis can effect the Distal Phalanges of some individuals, and the anti-inflammatory attributes of the drug Phenytoin can relieve the symptoms of osteoarthritis in some patients. You should spend less time being critical of me as it pertains to the therapeutic value of a prescribed drug, and more time paying down your student loan from the University of Phoenix.

[Aedes]

For god's sake, here is the FDA-approved package insert and full prescribing information for phenytoin. Take a brief look at "indications and usage":

http://media.pfizer.com/files/produc...i_dilantin.pdf

Being one of the oldest drugs still in use (first marketed around 1960), phenytoin has been tried for a lot of things, both off-label and in clinical trials. But we're talking about a generation ago. Phenytoin is a notoriously toxic drug that has a very limited set of uses these days.

Originally Posted by Ruthless Logic

Distal Phalanges.....word salad? The disease process of osteoarthritis can effect the Distal Phalanges of some individuals, and the anti-inflammatory attributes of the drug Phenytoin can relieve the symptoms of osteoarthritis in some patients. You should spend less time being critical of me as it pertains to the therapeutic value of a prescribed drug, and more time paying down your student loan from the University of Phoenix.

Distal phalanges is only word salad when used in the sentence "Phenytoin is used to treat most types of distal phalanges", which is what you wrote. A phalanx (the singular of phalanges) is an anatomic word and "distal" refers to the end farther away from the body (it's the opposite of "proximal"). So what you wrote is like writing "Tylenol is used to treat most types of heads."

Yes, osteoarthritis affects the interphalangeal joints (arthritis refers to joints, not bones which the phalanges are). However, antiinflammatories in clinical trials are marginally effective for osteoarthritis, with little difference between antiinflammatories (like ibuprofen) and non-antiinflammatory analgesics (like acetominphen).

Phenytoin is not an effective antiinflammatory, it is not used therapeutically for osteoarthritis, and in fact it is known to worsen osteoarthritis in rare cases (Eur J Intern Med. 2001 Sep;12(5):448-450). It has been studied for rheumatoid arthritis which is a completely different disease than osteoarthritis, and it has had some efficacy in those few studies, but it is not in clinical use because there are numerous better, safer drugs for RA. It's a very toxic drug that has limited use, almost exclusively for acute and chronic seizure management (it's probably used off-label for some refractory psychiatric disorders and severe neuropathic pain disorders as well, but that's not my specialty so I'm not sure). Phenytoin has a LOT of toxicities, including drug interactions, hepatotoxicity, and drug rashes, so its use is pretty limited.

As for my medical training, Harvard Medical School and the University of Connecticut School of Medicine have been kind enough to be my homes for the last 11 years of my medical career, and I've just taken a faculty position as one of the core teachers in the internal medicine and med-peds residencies at Duke Medical School. I hold three board certifications, two licenses, DEA certification, and a number of publications and awards. But hey, you were close.

Why are we fighting about this, by the way? Oh, because you called it a cardiac drug and I said that it wasn't. Can we just get back to the topic now?

[de_budding]

So can someone surmarise the ground covered so far, with regards to drugs and violence? >.>

[Doobah47]

I'd love to:

Drugs are fantastic; recreational drugs are fun and medicinal drugs are more fun than death (which is a grand accolade if you ask me).

Violence happens, like sh*t, although there's some kind of something involved when we don't do it.

And finally the USA is some kind of water closet filled with coca-cola...

[Doobah47]

I'd like to interject with the concept of peace.

Drugs tend to make the user peaceful; cocaine, marijuana, opiates, amphetamines all promote states of being that tend not to incur violent acts. However, I only say this with reference to personal experience, and I would love to add that drugs are never at fault for any kind of problem they cause, it is the people consuming and prescribing the drugs who are at fault - so if you want to cite example x of crack-cocaine user z shooting heroin dealer y, stealing his stash and making off with his mobile phone then please omit the fact that the proponent of said murder was high at the time.

Secondly, so called 'recreational' drugs do exactly what it says on their tin - they are a cause of RECREATION, which is exactly what our existence is, sober or strung-out. People create creations inspired by intoxication, an example might be testosterone injections causing the user to create vast piles of cash, or marijuana users creating opulent jazz works, or viagra users creating babies, or cocaine users creating massive psychological/philosophical doctrines - everybody is on drugs whether we like it or not, oxygen starvation causes an 'effect' or 'altered state' so if it could ever be said that oxygen consumption does not cause an 'altered state' it would be ludicrous, ridiculous and patently incorrect.

All these human people ever seem to come up with is some sort of mishapen dichotomy - x is EITHER 'good' or if not it is therefore 'bad'. Many things are both, 'recreational' drugs is a perfect example - some eedjut takes cocaine for 10 years and dies age 32 so people cite cocaine as a bad, dangerous thing that must be eliminated, yet the same person might say that the user should have spoken to someone about his problem - exactly what he probably did on cocaine. Or a heroin user who is invited to a rehab clinic where there is no love for the guy, just a nurse to clean up his puke; many people say "oh heroin made him sick, it must be bad..." yet they fail to realize the patent ineptitude of a rehab clinic, or in fact a society one might add, that fails to proffer love to those individuals who require warm and cozy feelings.

It's a cold cold world and people do the dumb thing and blow up the fridge...