Violence

[Didymos Thomas]

Having socialized with people "of ill repute" let's say, I'd say that usually gang related / crime related lifestyles are a system imposed via boredom, and not so much via poverty.

I'm sure boredom plays a role, but I think there is something more to it. People in poverty sometimes turn to crime because they have no other option. Others in poverty turn to crime because crime seems more appealing than flipping burgers. Regardless of economic status, people turn to crime out of desire - they want the lifestyle, the money, and a certain respect they assume comes with the territory.

[Wizzy]

Doobah

I've been socializing with people "of ill repute" myself, I've acctually been on the wrong side of the law pretty much my whole life.. I where a verry mild version of a "gangbanger" in my early teens you know, doing the gang signs, taging up turf, fighting, dealing in alcohol (alot of smuggled alcohol comes to sweden because of our extremley high alcohol prices) and to a near-nil level drugs etc. And I have to claim that you are wrong on your claim that boredom creates gangsters..

I know from my own experiences that I where in the "gang" for the respect and status but stayed for the firends and the money... Although I did tag up turf and started fights out of boredom... I only got out of the gang when I realized that it where going to take me down, I had the choise to run with it becoming an all-out gangster or walking away from it.. I walked and have on several occations doubted my choise when going gets hard and when the spirit becomes heavy to keep of the rocky bottom..

What acctually pushed me out of that life where nothing but my active choise not to take narcotics, I've always wanted my mind to be as much as it could, thus making narcotics close to the only thing I wouldn't use by any means... When I looked around and saw that the other people in the gang, my firends, where starting to use the heavy drugs and loosing all their money to pushers, I knew it was time for me to leave because I wouldn't have been able to see any more people beeing destroyed by drugs...

To cure my boredom I did start with arts and poems but also things like politics and -suprise- philosophy.. So you have a point about the arts n crafts program you sugested..

And wheren't the american dream the reason why everybody moved over there back in the like 17 to 18 hundreds? Isn't it that old? So how do you know the crime rates back in those days? But in those days I belive that the american dream where more about freedom and such then it is today about greed and finances...

Drugs and prostitution are two thing I would like to remove from the gang income... definently.. I have a "thought" about it on my website acctually.. "Inside Wizzy's head" it's called if you would be interested in reading it..

[Doobah47]

I suppose my reference point is simple in that boredom breeds desire; so perhaps people may be able to subsist (in the West) without actually doing paid work (charity/welfare/pension) but their desire becomes inflated when they are left doing nothing for anybody, even themselves - so in fact I think you'd find that it is boredom and not poverty that is the cause of specifically gang indoctrination and crime made for lucrative profits.

Once when I was young I went out for the traditional bender (long night of alcohol etc) and in the morning with no money and starving bellies somebody stole a loaf from an unattended bakers; now I would not really call this a crime as such, necessity bred it, so if perhaps he was jailed I would have serious grievances with the state. Of course if somebody is selling heroin and enslaving young people for prostitution in order to have caviar, cars and cocaine, then I would expect there to be some kind of retribution, such as jail.

Jail is a founding factor in our supposedly democratic system, so I suppose the reference to jail kind of fits into a thread about violence - another question being 'is the threat of x enough to stop y, when x and y are realistically unrelated?' Of course I disagree entirely with capital/corporal punishment so we are left with jail, which is in turn a breeding ground for heroin addiction, criminal networking and self-destruction. An eye for an eye is not fair with regard to mistake or cause and effect, and surely (due to deviation) anything anybody does is relevant to one of these activities. So I conclude by saying that punishment is unsatisfactory - my feeling is that punishments leads to introvertion and thus to greater 'crimes' when an introvert switches; essentially detumescence is what is required after committing 'crimes', the same as detumescence is required after watching porn let's say - carnal instincts fuel basic crimes (not gang or preconcieved) so maybe if we had a system of language that identified the requirement to relax and reconsider morality as it were.

[Ruthless Logic]

Originally Posted by de_budding

Doest this really incorporate drugs like anabolic steroids and cafeen, as well as medicines? In the sense that evolution is being brought into this- isn't it a case of providing evidence that all drugs have negative side effects? And therefore all altered states of body/mind via substance are negative alterations?

I can not recall the last time an aspirin or a required prescribed Heart Medication ( Phenytoin, Encainide) produces the same practical effects, such as the dulling or exasperated influence on the Human Body like Marijuana or Methamphetamine. To defend the use of mood-altering recreational drugs (cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin), because some individuals consume maintenance drugs (high cholesterol or blood-pressure beta-blockers) that show no practical comparison on the ability to alter an individuals default position of sobriety, only serves to expose an individual to the accusation of meretricious reasoning.

[Didymos Thomas]

I can not recall the last time an aspirin or a required prescribed Heart Medication ( Phenytoin, Encainide) produces the same practical effects, such as the dulling or exasperated influence on the Human Body like Marijuana or Methamphetamine. To defend the use of mood-altering recreational drugs (cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin), because some individuals consume maintenance drugs (high cholesterol or blood-pressure beta-blockers) that show no practical comparison on the ability to alter an individuals default position of sobriety, only serves to expose an individual to the accusation of meretricious reasoning.

Every substance you criticize here has medical use, with the exception of methamphetamine (at least, I know of no medical use for the drug). However, even methamphetamine seems to have at least occasional survival value given it's military history.

You mention aspirin. Aspirin, if taken in high enough doses, can be fatal. This is impossible with marijuana.

Not to mention the host of prescription drugs which do have the same practical effects, even when taken as prescribed. Many of them are derived from substances you criticize, like opium.

Though, we have managed to stray from the topic. As drugs pertain to violence, it seems that no drug is necessarily more harmful than helpful, and that humans have the potential to use drugs to reduce suffering as well as the potential to use drugs to increase suffering. It's us, not the substance.

[Ruthless Logic]

Originally Posted by Wizzy

Ruthless Logic

Oh man, sorry dude but I'm chosing the corner of budding and thomas on this one..

Why is sobriety so important in the first place? Don't you know that a moderate intake of alcohol for example is healthy for the mind and acctually makes the mind work better? I'm talking small amounts here but that have to qualify fo "pervasive drug" doesn't it? You kill braincells, true, but you do kill the slow and un-healthy braincells first, making the surviving braincells more effective...

Ofcourse all drugs have side-effects, all things have side-effects... The three strike system which america uses have the side-effect of turning non-violent criminals into violent criminals if they have two strikes.. Electing George Bush had the side effect of everybody in the world hating you for it.. A normal aspirin can give you a whole bunch of different thing that's negative..
Even though this is all true, drugs are often good.. If you had heart problems you'd be taking the medz in a second and you know it even if they made your skin green and cloth ripped to shreds only leaving the convinient part that covers your 'private parts'...

And another thing: throwing around big words might it seem like you know what you are talking about in normal and especially political contexts, in philosophy, it normaly just makes you look like you are covering up the fact that you can't honestly back up your claims... Not saying that you do that just saying that it makes it look that way...

It appears to be a contradiction, the usage of multisyllable vocabulary, and the accusation of careless incompetency. To have the cognitive ability to have access to words of more distinctive definitions, should it not follow that the ensuing claims or arguments contain the same precise attributes that allowed the writer to incorporporate and use the expanded vocabulary to detail his or her considerations.

[Aedes]

Originally Posted by Ruthless Logic

I can not recall the last time an aspirin or a required prescribed Heart Medication ( Phenytoin, Encainide)...

Phenytoin is not a heart medication, it's for seizures and on occasion used for some psychiatric disorders like bipolar disorder. And jeez, encainide?! I'm not sure that's actually even manufactured anymore -- procainamide is a relative that's at the bottom of the cardiology crash cart, but believe me that drugs like amiodarone and sotalol have replaced that class of drugs.

...produces the same practical effects, such as the dulling or exasperated influence on the Human Body like Marijuana or Methamphetamine.

Well, I prescribe opiate narcotics and benzodiazepines (tranquilizers, like Valium and Xanax) on a daily basis to treat pain and anxiety in hospitalized patients. Of course these can be abused, but they are critically important drugs for clinical use. Do you want a list of therapeutically important drugs that can alter consciousness? How about antiemetics (nausea drugs) like phenergan, compazine, and metoclopramide? How about antihistamines (for itching) like diphenhydramine (Benadryl)? How about seizure medications (like carbemazepine, phenytoin, and phenobarbital to name a few)? Oh, by the way, beta blockers CAN be sedating, especially nonselective beta blockers like propranolol -- but they certainly can affect energy levels by limiting exercise tolerance and capacity. And finally, I'll spare you a list of all the antidepressants, antipsychotics, and mood stabilizers that are either activating or sedating.

[Doobah47]

I have a theory that everything humans do is founded in boredom; boredom being a state of potential activity.

We do have carnal desires (sex/food/sleep) yet how can we say that these are not borne of potential confounded by innate hormone/energy levels; I think we have to say that these two factors are the foundation of all activity.

Surely this is an analogy for preconceived 'crime' - desire confounded by potential, or potential confounded by desire.

The real reason for this thread is to investigate the notion of crime conceived 'in the moment' and manifest as subconscious intuition fed through the mechanics of the conscious (which deal with perception). My original point was the inference that punishment x being a reason not to take action y is unsatisfactory, and that some kind of detumescence needs to be incorporated into a system of society.

You know, it might sounds nuts but I have an idea:
Keep excretions inside the body, and let them go when you need to, not when you want to. This is perfect for detumescence - if you've ever tried tantra you might understand that if you hold in a piss during 'the act' then let it go when you desire an orgasm, then you have achieved a very simplistic and immediately obvious form of detumescence.

So why not hold a piss in and let it go before succumbing to a violent act.

Second on the list is the succumbing to advertising and salesmanship - if you refuse the concept of self-satisfaction (urination) then surely you will be less likely to desire a form of satisfaction which registers as less important than urinating. See; urea is gold, and money is gold - so hold one in and surely the rest might follow.

Funny as it might seem, I'm sure that you've noticed that toilets are advertised as 'WC'; so one might insert a few vowels and discover that one could say I must go to Wacay (Wa-say), so if you do urinate it might be said that one is a Wa-say - pretty simple. Then after reading this take a look at this word: 'USA', seems pretty inocuous on the surface, then say it out loud - "YOU WA SAY". Aha! is what you might say... then you take a look at the US version of English and discover that 'wizz' is a term for urination... uh-oh... so wizz could easily be converted to wiss or more simply to wc.

I know you might say that inserting vowels and making up random words is a little weird, as it would seem is holding in a piss; but then I say that Hebrew likes to remove vowels from words, so why can't we insert them?

Anyway! There you have it, detumescence might depend on something being introverted then expounded at will. Why not find a way to fit this into language systems and variants on the American Dream.

[Ruthless Logic]

Originally Posted by Aedes

Phenytoin is not a heart medication, it's for seizures and on occasion used for some psychiatric disorders like bipolar disorder. And jeez, encainide?! I'm not sure that's actually even manufactured anymore -- procainamide is a relative that's at the bottom of the cardiology crash cart, but believe me that drugs like amiodarone and sotalol have replaced that class of drugs.

Well, I prescribe opiate narcotics and benzodiazepines (tranquilizers, like Valium and Xanax) on a daily basis to treat pain and anxiety in hospitalized patients. Of course these can be abused, but they are critically important drugs for clinical use. Do you want a list of therapeutically important drugs that can alter consciousness? How about antiemetics (nausea drugs) like phenergan, compazine, and metoclopramide? How about antihistamines (for itching) like diphenhydramine (Benadryl)? How about seizure medications (like carbemazepine, phenytoin, and phenobarbital to name a few)? Oh, by the way, beta blockers CAN be sedating, especially nonselective beta blockers like propranolol -- but they certainly can affect energy levels by limiting exercise tolerance and capacity. And finally, I'll spare you a list of all the antidepressants, antipsychotics, and mood stabilizers that are either activating or sedating.

Phenytoin is a commonly prescribed anticonvulsant used to treat most types of ... of distal phalanges, impaired growth, and congenital heart defects.

[Doobah47]

Originally Posted by Aedes

And finally, I'll spare you a list of all the antidepressants, antipsychotics, and mood stabilizers that are either activating or sedating.

I wouldn't mind if you mentioned what categories rispiradone fits into...