Truth and Belief

[boagie]

Originally Posted by Isa

The simple act of observation can affect reality; indifferent or objective.

In a quantum physics experiment done at the Weizmann Inst., studying light/electrons' ability to behave both as particles and waves, they discovered a very interesting result: electrons could only behave as waves if they are not observed. The simple act of observation forced an electron to behave as a particle.

http://glenavalon.com/observation01.html

The ironic thing to me is that this could not have been found out without observation.

Perhaps the lesson in this is that the subjects are to learn as much about themselves as they do about the objects they are observing.

Isa,

I think this just underlines the fact that a complete objectivity is not possiable. For many people objectivity means complete non-involvement, no emotional investment. I think objectivity means observation from a safe emotional distance, not that care is not there at all, which would make it indifference.

[perplexity]

Originally Posted by Isa

The ironic thing to me is that this could not have been found out without observation.
Perhaps the lesson in this is that the subjects are to learn as much about themselves as they do about the objects they are observing.

This is hardly so much of a novelty, to learn as much about ourselves as we do about the World we thought we knew . The doctrine otherwise arrived at is known as "karma", or in pyschological terms, "projection".

"This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man."

(Hamlet, Act I, scene 3,)

[Isa]

Originally Posted by boagie

Isa,

I think this just underlines the fact that a complete objectivity is not possiable. For many people objectivity means complete non-involvement, no emotional investment. I think objectivity means observation from a safe emotional distance, not that care is not there at all, which would make it indifference.

The "observation" was done by an electronic device--very indifferent to the outcome.

And I think this underscores the fact that some things can only be understood/discovered by observation.

[boagie]

Originally Posted by Isa

The "observation" was done by an electronic device--very indifferent to the outcome.

And I think this underscores the fact that some things can only be understood/discovered by observation.

Isa,

I might also stand for the fact the we have a relation to the rest of reality due to our mere existense. Even the mechanical observation was itself observe was it not. Never the less, I think you are correct in stating observation is vital to understanding.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by boagie

Kennethamy,

What are you talking about, Brother? Things can be objectively true, but only subjectively known to be true. There is no meaning to the objective/physical world that the subject does not give it. Kennethamy, did you just pull the term brother out of the air, you seemed to be challenging me with a term you thought I had misused?

My knowledge that Quito is the capital of Ecuador is not subjective (except in the sense that it is my knowledge). It is quite objective, since it does not depend on what I believe. I know that Quito is the capital because it is, in fact the capital, for unless it is, I could not know it is the capital.

The term "brother" means "a male sibling". It is objectively true that English speaker use the term "brother" to mean male sibling. You are using the term "brother" in a different sense. Switch the example: the term, "father" means, "male parent". It is objectively true that "father" means male parent.

[boagie]

What is objectively true can only be subjectively known. The object in question does not know what you think of it.

[Isa]

Originally Posted by boagie

What is objectively true can only be subjectively known. The object in question does not know what you think of it.

Boagie,

Let me through this into the mix.

On what are you basing the statement that "the object in question does not know what you think of it?" The experiment done at the Weizmann Inst. may indicate that at some level object reality is aware of the subject observer.

Also, does it really make a truth less objectively true just because it can only be subjectively known?

[boagie]

Originally Posted by Isa

Boagie,

Let me through this into the mix.

On what are you basing the statement that "the object in question does not know what you think of it?" The experiment done at the Weizmann Inst. may indicate that at some level object reality is aware of the subject observer.

Also, does it really make a truth less objectively true just because it can only be subjectively known?

Hi Isa,

I realize there are strange things going on in physics, but it does not matter what there is to be known, it can only be known subjectively. No it does not make it less true if it can only be subjectively known, the only way we know is through our subjective experience. Even if in future it is discovered that matter has some degree of consicousness, this can only be known to us through our subjective experience. There is no other means of knowing.

[perplexity]

Originally Posted by Isa

Also, does it really make a truth less objectively true just because it can only be subjectively known?

< >

Obviously enough, an objective truth that can only be be subjectively known is an oxymoron.

The objective truth is a belief, not a truth

"Objective" means "believe this or else"

"Subjective means, "go away, your opinion is not convenient"

Sophisticated abuse.

[Isa]

Originally Posted by perplexity

This is hardly so much of a novelty, to learn as much about ourselves as we do about the World we thought we knew . The doctrine otherwise arrived at is known as "karma", or in pyschological terms, "projection".

"This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man."

(Hamlet, Act I, scene 3,)

Hi Perplexity,

Wouldn't the doctrine otherwise arrived at be known as "Dharma", or the psychological terms, "identification" and "self-reflection"?