Science and religion

[dpmartin]

Fido
"is it not man that took consciousness from God without permission?"

No; God gave man consciousness so that man may know God. But what man does with what God gives man. Man can only blame himself for.

[Didymos Thomas]

If you have ever owned an ant farm God's motivation should be obvious: Cheap entertainment. Diggit big guy! This is the last act of my passion play, and I hope you find it fashionable. Da en.

Only if I make the mistake of confusing God with man.

No; God gave man consciousness so that man may know God.

How do you know God's motivation to give man conciousness?

[Fido]

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

Only if I make the mistake of confusing God with man.

Why shouldn't you make the same mistake as everyone else? Are you too good to be wrong?

How do you know God's motivation to give man conciousness?

Faith is a fair substitute for knowledge. Either it works or it don't. If life as a test does not kill you, then it confirms you in your faith. And even though it does not point to any ultimate truth, it points many away from uncertainty -which most people sense with fear, as well they should because know one knows what will kill them.

[dpmartin]

Didymos Thomas

"How do you know God's motivation to give man conciousness?"

If you have consciousness, then He gave it to you. And surly we are not suppose to follow after lies, or rely on lies. Or at least it would be ill advised. Therefore there is a need for the knowledge of the Truth. But as one in the knowledge of Jesus the Christ as my Lord and Savior, to me it is apparent the man is made by the Living God, to know the Living God.

[Didymos Thomas]

If you have consciousness, then He gave it to you.

We might say this, but obviously there is more to it. The problem of what conciousness is, for example, is not solved by saying 'without God we have no conciousness'.

And surly we are not suppose to follow after lies, or rely on lies. Or at least it would be ill advised. Therefore there is a need for the knowledge of the Truth.

All fine, but this still does not solve the problem of how you determine God's motivation for doing something, ie, give man conciousness.
For us to know God seems insufficient, as we have capabilities that push us away from God, ie sin. Therefore, just because we have something, doesn't mean we have it to know God.

Why shouldn't you make the same mistake as everyone else? Are you too good to be wrong?

No, I'm wrong all of the time. Maybe even now. Maybe in everything I've ever said. Are you seriously asking me why I should avoid mistakes in reasoning?

Faith is a fair substitute for knowledge.

How so? How can you have faith in something you have no knowledge of?
To have faith without knowledge is to have no faith, it's to have an arbitrary belief.

[Aedes]

Originally Posted by dpmartin

God gave man consciousness so that man may know God. But what man does with what God gives man. Man can only blame himself for.

Yeah, an arrangement that allows for God to create everything in the world including human consciousness, and yet somehow not be responsible himself for allowing his world to have sin, evil, faithlessness, or inconsistencies that make his inspired word seem like a magical story rather than reality. Almost makes one want to become a Kabbalist.

[dpmartin]

Consciousness has been given so that we may know God. But did He not give man the power to choose ether to follow God’s Word for the love of God, or man’s own ways for the love of himself for himself. When it’s for you it’s your way and your choice, however when it’s for God it’s His Way and His choice.
Besides, since when does the Almighty, the Creator answer to man the created? What fool think himself wiser than God? What fool is there that thinks that God would have to apologize to man for letting man be and seek evil when man could choose Life, Truth? Especially when man could always call on the Lord. If every man soot to be like Jesus in sincerity what kind of world would it be? Therefore who is it that chooses not to? And who’s fault is that?

[Aedes]

When it’s for you it’s your way and your choice, however when it’s for God it’s His Way and His choice.

Then God did not create man. God created some parts of man, and man created the rest. Does Genesis distinguish what aspects of man were created by God and what aspects man can create for himself?

If God abdicates control over man's decisions, and any decision is made by man alone, then does that mean that God's reach and his power are not infinite? Because if there is any power that God relinquishes, then his power is not absolute.

Besides, since when does the Almighty, the Creator answer to man the created?

He doesn't. And that is the world's best justification for atheism.

[Didymos Thomas]

dpmartin -

Consciousness has been given so that we may know God. But did He not give man the power to choose ether to follow God’s Word for the love of God, or man’s own ways for the love of himself for himself. When it’s for you it’s your way and your choice, however when it’s for God it’s His Way and His choice.

You restate your assertion, but do not give any support. If you do not want to defend this particular assumption about God's motivation, or even the notion that we can know his determination (that he might have one at all), that's fine. But, if you were going to, I'd like to read what you have to say.

Besides, since when does the Almighty, the Creator answer to man the created?

No one has even suggested that he does. What has occured is that you have made a number of assertions which seem to be incoherent. If the understanding of God is incoherent, how could the understanding of God be true? To say "God is incoherent" doesn't solve the problem; it begs the question 'why?'. If God can be incoherent, what else can be incoherent?

What fool is there that thinks that God would have to apologize to man for letting man be and seek evil when man could choose Life, Truth?

The problem is that what is called evil seems to be very much a part of life.
I don't see this to be a problem, personally, as that evil seems to come from ignorance, which certainly isn't God.

If every man soot to be like Jesus in sincerity what kind of world would it be? Therefore who is it that chooses not to? And who’s fault is that?

If everyone sought to be like Jesus, the world would be a better place. And, yeah, man acts freely, so it's his responsibility...

But this is exactly the problem. If God is all powerful, and all knowing, then God is more responsible than anyone else. This makes sense, it is his creation, right? But if God is most responsible, preeminantly responsible, then he must also be responsible for evil. If God is Good, him giving rise to evil, being responsible for evil, having some relation other than being opposed to evil, what have you, creates a problem: How can God, being so perfect and good, be responsible for evil, and still rightly be called perfect and good?

You argue God is not responsible for evil, men are for choosing evil. This doctrine seems entirely opposed to the notion that God is allpowerful, allknowing, and perfectly good.

Aedes -

Yeah, an arrangement that allows for God to create everything in the world including human consciousness, and yet somehow not be responsible himself for allowing his world to have sin, evil, faithlessness, or inconsistencies that make his inspired word seem like a magical story rather than reality. Almost makes one want to become a Kabbalist.

I do not see much trouble with the situation. Just because an argument, and it's conclusions, strike you as odd, does not mean they are misguided.

He doesn't. And that is the world's best justification for atheism.

If that's the best, then I don't know any justifications for atheism. Only if God and man are somehow at odds could such a thing give atheism any support. Though, I will admit, if God and man are opposed, that may be all atheism needs.

[pericles]

Greeetings, I am new to this forum and this is my first post.

Scattered, may I ask what you feeel or consider 'your' purpose on earth is? Is there not a link between your purpose and Gods's purpose?

Originally Posted by Scattered

I don't expect so, but is anyone aware of any reasoning, logic or science about God or God's purpose? Actually, is there anything in religion (preferably Christianity) about God's purpose or purpose for humans?
Not too complicated please. I am a simple guy.