Science and religion

[Fido]

Originally Posted by Aedes

1. I am alive
2. I am trying to show that "living" is not a purpose of life[
3. My purposes are not metaphysically tied to any absolute purpose. I have intentions behind deliberate actions, and the consequences I hope for are the purposes that I apply

Consider if you will that your life is the end of a series of events all most all of which took place when human hold on life was far more tenuous than today. Do you have one bit of need to honor those who made this life possible for you with some devotion to the idea of life and life itself. If you consider life as purpose, or will, -you will not be at cross natures with nature. You could tap into a tremendous flow of life energy just by knowing what it is about. And, I am not talking some metapysical or religious claptrap here.

If you think of life at some perilous crossroads, like so many salmon swiming up stream, and along comes Aedes the salmon, saying my purpose instead of the purpose, well then, at that point, there is one at least in every crowd that just don't get it, and so ends up et by a bear. You need to tune into reality, and get a hold of your past, and find out what team you are playing for, and find out whose life runs in your veins. Every man lives for his ancestors who cannot live except through him. To give life to your own people you have to give life to some one else's people. In the very act of love and survival you have compromised yourself and become the father of humanity. Our purpose is to serve life even at the price of self.

4. Consciousness allows us to think of purpose. Without consciousness there is no purpose. I am interacting with you consciously and self-consciously, and I have purposes (for letters to appear on the screen that correspond to my thoughts, and for them to appear on your screen for you to become aware of my thoughts, etc). But my sinoatrial node, which tells my heart how fast to beat, is not working with the purpose of doing that because it's involuntary -- it's just firing because of a self-regulating biological mechanism.


I sometimes forget that some people aren't used to casually and non-judgementally chatting about sex, ****, piss, pus, phlegm, drugs, and rashes. I promise to make it PG-13 for you next time.

How could you leave out old condoms and kotexes? Don't worry about offending me as I have offended myself. If I want offense all I have to do pry up the scab of memory and peek inside. I do hope you consider that approaching something like sexuality as a scientist sort of tortures the meaning of the act. Its your act. Live it like you like.

[dpmartin]

Aedes

"1. I am alive"
I had to ask, I’ve had some try to go there, no offence.

"Consciousness allows us to think of purpose. Without consciousness there is no purpose."

Or could it be consciousness is required for the awareness of purpose, or knowledge or Truth. In other words purpose, knowledge, reason, or Truth exists, or is, whether there be consciousness or not in men.

I mean as far we can tell, a rock doesn’t have to be aware of, or conscious of squat to be a rock. Why are men required to be conscious? And what for, if there be no purpose, or no, absolute purpose?

[Didymos Thomas]

I mean as far we can tell, a rock doesn’t have to be aware of, or conscious of squat to be a rock. Why are men required to be conscious? And what for, if there be no purpose, or no, absolute purpose?

As far as we can tell, a rock doesn't have conciousness. It's not that men are required to have conciousness - some do not. The thing is, most do. Having conciousness is something general to our species. Like walking upright. Having lungs.
Does there need to be another "purpose", apart from the fact that conciousness improves man's chance of survival? The survival value of conciousness is not indicative of some "purpose"; having conciousness increases man's chance of survival, thus having conciousness thrives among men.

[Aedes]

Originally Posted by Fido

Consider if you will that your life is the end of a series of events all most all of which took place when human hold on life was far more tenuous than today. Do you have one bit of need to honor those who made this life possible for you with some devotion to the idea of life and life itself. If you consider life as purpose, or will, -you will not be at cross natures with nature. You could tap into a tremendous flow of life energy just by knowing what it is about. And, I am not talking some metapysical or religious claptrap here.

If you think of life at some perilous crossroads, like so many salmon swiming up stream, and along comes Aedes the salmon, saying my purpose instead of the purpose, well then, at that point, there is one at least in every crowd that just don't get it, and so ends up et by a bear. You need to tune into reality, and get a hold of your past, and find out what team you are playing for, and find out whose life runs in your veins. Every man lives for his ancestors who cannot live except through him. To give life to your own people you have to give life to some one else's people. In the very act of love and survival you have compromised yourself and become the father of humanity. Our purpose is to serve life even at the price of self.

You can express it as poetically and wistfully as you want, but you're still nowhere near convincing me that purpose is anything other than self-defined and self-conscious. If I live for my ancestors (as I feel I do in some way), then it's my self-conscious infusion of that into my own conception of life's meaning. If I throw myself in front of a bus to save a child, it's my own prioritization and empathy that initiates the act. As for OUR purpose? Well, ask 6 billion people what the absolute purpose of life is, and you'll get 6 billion answers, so why should I accept yours?

I do hope you consider that approaching something like sexuality as a scientist sort of tortures the meaning of the act. Its your act. Live it like you like.

Unless you consider typing on this forum to be a sexual act, which speaking for myself I do not, then you might not be so quick to blur analysis and discussion with "tortured meaning". But again, in my capacity as a physician, I have to be able to talk to patients about things that are ordinarily very private and taboo in a way that makes them feel comfortable talking about the subject. In this forum, sex was a perfectly appropriate example of something we as humans do that involves everything from physiology and behavior to ideas of teleology and biological determinism, all the way up to issues of relationships and morality. So it was a great subject to bring up, and it's a shame that in your discomfort with the subject that you had to act like a child with your quasi ad hominem sarcasm at me. And as for my personal sex life, my personal act, my personal meaning, it's great and it's none of your ******* business so leave me alone.

[dpmartin]

Didymos Thomas

Do you mean stay warm, dry, eat, in reasonable safety to procreate? That’s all that is necessary for survival. Animals do that without that which man has, there’s not point for the rest of what man does in that perspective. Why would God give man the consciousness that man has when what other specie's have is sufficient for their survival?

[Fido]

Originally Posted by dpmartin

Didymos Thomas

Do you mean stay warm, dry, eat, in reasonable safety to procreate? That’s all that is necessary for survival. Animals do that without that which man has, there’s not point for the rest of what man does in that perspective. Why would God give man the consciousness that man has when what other specie's have is sufficient for their survival?

In your myth is it not man that took consciousness from God without permission? No one, not even in the Bible has ever offered to give it back. Job, the best of the bunch wanted to dispute with God. Take it like a man Job. It is reality. It does not have to make sense. It does have to be dealt with.

[Didymos Thomas]

Do you mean stay warm, dry, eat, in reasonable safety to procreate? That’s all that is necessary for survival. Animals do that without that which man has, there’s not point for the rest of what man does in that perspective. Why would God give man the consciousness that man has when what other specie's have is sufficient for their survival?
Thanks

I think the answer to the first question might be the very value of survival. Humans are capable of finding ever more efficient ways of doing those things, and they also have the capability to exceed their needs. Conciousness provides this, and gives man at least a chance to avoid some of the pitfalls of these skills.

As for God; I have no clue. How could we speculate as to God's motivation?

[Aedes]

This may be a tangent, but I think much if not ALL of philosophy, including the question of things like MEANING and PURPOSE and how universal they are, come down to the collision between us as self-conscious people versus us as things. In various ways, I think humans (even the most scientifically Mr. Spock-esque hyperrational of us) are troubled by the idea that we're things. We're unique things, but then again water is unique from lava and trees are unique from mushrooms.

So the question becomes whether purpose and meaning lie objectively within us whether we're aware or not, or is purpose something that our self-consciousness injects.

[dpmartin]

Aedes

Of corse, to me, it seems evident that man is designed to know a true purpose, or meaning. The effect on our society of relying on science to know it all, in this area, I believe is hurting us grievously. My contention is, this society, or western culture is giving what is God’s to Caesar.

[Fido]

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

I think the answer to the first question might be the very value of survival. Humans are capable of finding ever more efficient ways of doing those things, and they also have the capability to exceed their needs. Conciousness provides this, and gives man at least a chance to avoid some of the pitfalls of these skills.

As for God; I have no clue. How could we speculate as to God's motivation?

If you have ever owned an ant farm God's motivation should be obvious: Cheap entertainment. Diggit big guy! This is the last act of my passion play, and I hope you find it fashionable. Da en.