The nature of the Almighty

[boagie]

Irishcop,

Speculation is not what the church or the faithful call it now do they? They call it faith and it apparently gives them certainty,how this is possible,I fail to grasp.Religion does not even claim to have knowledge in the traditional sense for in the presence of knowledge,there would be no need of faith------say good night Gracie! All I can say is these people sure must be smoking some really good ****.



Did you ever wonder what they based that old movie,"Invasion Of The Body Snatchers",on? Just get that glazed look in your eyes my friend,and they will not know you are not one of them.




Honk if you love Jesus!!

[Irishcop]

Originally Posted by boagie

Irishcop,

Speculation is not what the church or the faithful call it now do they? They call it faith and it apparently gives them certainty,how this is possible,I fail to grasp.Religion does not even claim to have knowledge in the traditional sense for in the presence of knowledge,there would be no need of faith------say good night Gracie! All I can say is these people sure must be smoking some really good ****.



Did you ever wonder what they based that old movie,"Invasion Of The Body Snatchers",on? Just get that glazed look in your eyes my friend,and they will not know you are not one of them.




Honk if you love Jesus!!

Indeed, but I'm not debating "the Church", or the "Faithful". I'm debating you, sir.

in the presence of knowledge,there would be no need of faith

A bold statement for someone who admittedly has no knowledge of faith, isn't it? You are basing your assertion on an unknown value.

[boagie]

[quote=Irishcop;3242]Indeed, but I'm not debating "the Church", or the "Faithful". I'm debating you, sir.

A bold statement for someone who admittedly has no knowledge of faith, isn't it?You are basing your assertion on an unknown value."

Irish,

Perhaps you could be Christian about this and tell me the value of X, what is the foundation of X how many X's equal the weight of a bag of rocks.

Your Victorian reaction is odd if nothing else,"I'am debating you sir!!" Well yes,and these things are elements in the debate,the ground rules do not change because you feel some discomfort.I think we had best drop this dialogue as we are not yet defined enemies.We agree to disagree.I recognize the truely faithful when I hear them,and I know to you that is a compliment,so,you can if you chose,be pleased. I know you can believe anything you set your mind to!

[Irishcop]

[quote=boagie;3243]

Originally Posted by Irishcop

Indeed, but I'm not debating "the Church", or the "Faithful". I'm debating you, sir.

A bold statement for someone who admittedly has no knowledge of faith, isn't it?You are basing your assertion on an unknown value."

Irish,

Perhaps you could be Christian about this and tell me the value of X, what is the foundation of X how many X's equal the weight of a bag of rocks.

Your Victorian reaction is odd if nothing else,"I'am debating you sir!!" Well yes,and these things are elements in the debate,the ground rules do not change because you feel some discomfort.I think we had best drop this dialogue as we are not yet defined enemies.We agree to disagree.I recognize the truely faithful when I hear them,and I know to you that is a compliment,so,you can if you chose,be pleased. I know you can believe anything you set your mind to!

I was pretty amused to hear you read that as a Victorian style, but it seems to bode well with some of your misconceptions, or at least misreads. Could it may be a product of a prejudice you have for anybody who believes in a God? Actually I had slip into a quite secular professional mode, I am a cop remember, thus if all courtesy is not extended when dealing with folk of differing opinions, I get calls on me, about how rude I am.
Also, I am decidedly not your enemy, we can agree to disagree, in fact that is what the forums are all about, is it not? I dont take anything you've said personally. It would make for a boring bout if both boxers came out of their corners and ... had tea and crumpets.
But we can unlock horns, if you choose, I'm sure we both can find other dragons to slay, or windmills depending on your point of view.
Ultimately, at the end of our days, it will boil down to two scenarios if one of us is right, ....either, I die and cease to exist never knowing I was wrong, or you die and lament forever that you were wrong.
For now, I know you can believe anything you set your mind to! too.

[boagie]

Irish,

Your a real cop!O'Well you have just taken a very large leap up in my estimation,I have the deepest respect for the boys blue.You are of course right about the nature of conflict,you have my apology if I got a bit testy,though I thought I sensed a little testy on your end as well.

You seemed to have difficult with the idea that in the presence of knowledge there is no need for faith,it is only logical if you think a moment.If I know something to be true,why would I need the help of faith.Knowledge and faith create an oxy moron.You are the better man if you do not take things personally,I,I am afraid to often do,character flaw no doubt,and in the passion of the moment sometimes say regetable things.Indeed as a police officer I could see where discipline would prove the virtue and carry over into other realms.

I am a little amused at your wrap up though,my life long friend is a retired police officer and a born again Christian,you get the **** he is spared.I have often heard that logic from my friend,if I am wrong there will be no consequences,if you are wrong your ass will burn in hell.The diffirence in approach is this,I do not will myself to believe in what is most pleaseing to me,and have never understood this process in others.My friend has to ignore a great deal and avoid learning a good deal to stay on his straight and narrow path.In some respects his faith seems to strengthen him for life's struggle but certainly does not do much for the intellect,so many books to avoid.

I am aware however that there must be some very large differences between believers as my friend could never tolerate and intense dialogue, it simply would never get off the ground.I value his friendship more than being right, so the topic is avoided.My friend to understands his bible in the literal sense,he does not believe in evolution and until just a few years ago he thought slavery was alright as long as the slaves were black,the bible tells him so.Well I don't think either of us is going to change our positions but perhaps mellow out a bit.

Update:Religion seems to think it should be respected by all,even those who do not agree,and that it had for sometime,the degree to which it has become political has change all that.The church from my perspective should make up its mind whether its business is spiritual or political, if it choses political or even both,it then should be treated as a political organisation,political entity/possiable enemy--the American Taliban.

[Irishcop]

Originally Posted by boagie

Irish,

Your a real cop!O'Well you have just taken a very large leap up in my estimation,I have the deepest respect for the boys blue.You are of course right about the nature of conflict,you have my apology if I got a bit testy,though I thought I sensed a little testy on your end as well.

You seemed to have difficult with the idea that in the presence of knowledge there is no need for faith,it is only logical if you think a moment.If I know something to be true,why would I need the help of faith.Knowledge and faith create an oxy moron.You are the better man if you do not take things personally,I,I am afraid to often do,character flaw no doubt,and in the passion of the moment sometimes say regetable things.Indeed as a police officer I could see where discipline would prove the virtue and carry over into other realms.

I am a little amused at your wrap up though,my life long friend is a retired police officer and a born again Christian,you get the **** he is spared.I have often heard that logic from my friend,if I am wrong there will be no consequences,if you are wrong your ass will burn in hell.The diffirence in approach is this,I do not will myself to believe in what is most pleaseing to me,and have never understood this process in others.My friend has to ignore a great deal and avoid learning a good deal to stay on his straight and narrow path.In some respects his faith seems to strengthen him for life's struggle but certainly does not do much for the intellect,so many books to avoid.

I am aware however that there must be some very large differences between believers as my friend could never tolerate and intense dialogue, it simply would never get off the ground.I value his friendship more than being right, so the topic is avoided.My friend to understands his bible in the literal sense,he does not believe in evolution and until just a few years ago he thought slavery was alright as long as the slaves were black,the bible tells him so.Well I don't think either of us is going to change our positions but perhaps mellow out a bit.

Update:Religion seems to think it should be respected by all,even those who do not agree,and that it had for sometime,the degree to which it has become political has change all that.The church from my perspective should make up its mind whether its business is spiritual or political, if it choses political or even both,it then should be treated as a political organisation,political entity/possiable enemy--the American Taliban.

Yes sir, I am a Deputy Sheriff, but I was educated at Ohio University, with a major titled "An Astronomy Concentration in Physics" and a minor in Geology. I had to leave college in the third year for family problems. So you see, I don't shy away from knowledge, I seek it out.
In college, the majority of my professors did not meddle in the topic of religion, but I suspect they were agnostic or atheist.
One professor, a Geologist, spent the first week spewing forth atheistic sermons, which I felt was not only uncalled for, but a waste of everybody's tuition for the sole fact we were there to study Geology, not his religious views. I would have felt similarly slighted if he had preached creationism. I can compartmentalize, and I see scientific knowledge as the way that God created this universe.
I had as much problem with clergy who dismisses science, as I have with professors who dismiss religion. Actually, I don't see where the two (science and the Bible) conflict, ....when taken in context. The Biblical account in Genesis is a very good way to express the Nebular Cloud theory and early Earth history, to an ancient readership. Chronologically, its order is perfect.
So yes, I disagree with your premise, from a personal point of view that knowledge will cancel faith. Science is what it is, a culmination of knowledge, which admittedly must be tweaked as we find new facts. And, Religion is what it is, a culmination of wisdom, which must be read in the context of which it was given. Then the two are not in conflict, I see them like a body and soul.
Its not a matter of willing myself to believe, I simply see it differently than you, and have drawn a different conclusion than yours.

The only folk I have little tolerance for are Islamists. I have no respect for that cult, because of the barbaric nature of its canons, rape, slavery, and murder, rather than a message of forgiveness, not only layed out by its founder but also executed by him. Mohamed was a serial rapist, pedophile, and mass murderer. His legacy is a world tragedy, and has only brought horror to us all.

I seriously never felt testy with you, it could have just been my bluntness showing through. I have several atheist friends, they are good people, even if I think they are misguided. I'm used to receiving alot worse than what you were dishing, ....in fact, I do this to relax

"God* does not play dice with the universe" Einstein on the Uncertainty Principle.

*Spinoza's God

[Len]

I have been following this thread finding myself siding with Irish here and Boagie there. It's been an interesting discussion to say the least.

I would like to offer something of value if I may with regards to the "KNOWING" vs "Faith" issue.

Originally Posted by boagie

Irish,

You seemed to have difficult with the idea that in the presence of knowledge there is no need for faith,it is only logical if you think a moment.If I know something to be true,why would I need the help of faith.

"Knowing is that which is the Light within us. It is the cause of the effect which our senses observe."

Walter Russell
The Message Of The Divine Iliad Vol. 1

I would side with Boagie here. KNOWING requires no Faith.

[Irishcop]

Originally Posted by Len

I have been following this thread finding myself siding with Irish here and Boagie there. It's been an interesting discussion to say the least.

I would like to offer something of value if I may with regards to the "KNOWING" vs "Faith" issue.





I would side with Boagie here. KNOWING requires no Faith.

Boagie didnt postulate "knowing requires no faith". Rather, he has concluded that knowledge makes faith obsolete and nullifies it. In other words, he believes only an ignorant person has faith, .... if I read him right.

[boagie]

Originally Posted by Irishcop

Boagie didnt postulate "knowing requires no faith". Rather, he has concluded that knowledge makes faith obsolete and nullifies it. In other words, he believes only an ignorant person has faith, .... if I read him right.

Len,Irishcop,

I think I must be missing something here Irish,if I am standing in the rain,I know its raining,why would I need faith to support that conclusion.Indeed faith is dependent upon the absence of knowledge by defination,you do not know there is a god-----Lord help my disbelief,you have faith that there is a god.Perhaps if you define what you mean by faith,what exactly is it but wishful thinking.The will to believe? Before you consider a response consider what every other religion since the begining of time has used it for,to reach belief, without substantial evidence in its support.For the blind,knowing where the furniture is beats the hell out of stumbling,dumping and falling over their inanimate objects,you might say that they have faith that the funiture is in the same place as it was before,based on past knowledge,only if they continue in not being able to see and are simply told the objects are in their familar places might you say it is faith again,faith in an individual telling them this is so.Boagie IS postulating, knowing requires no faith,just as faith requires no knowledge but simply a premise.

Thanks Len,and welcome to the dialogue!

[boagie]

Hi Irishcop!

Hell,no offense intended,even I could wrap my mind around Spinoza's god.Spinoza's god is totality and as part of that totality we are then divine aspects,for there are no other kinds.You are a most interesting fellow Irish,like the friend I told you about,you are intrigueing and a puzzle,but of good intent and a good heart me thinks.

That business of being force-fed someone elses personal belief system would offend me as well,even if I agreed with it.Perhaps in this multicultural reality we have you can see where Christianity does not have a special place in the American classroom.You speak of Christianity as if it were wisdom literature--I can see that to some extent.As wisdom literature however, I do not think it holds a candle to the Hindu scriptures,the bible tends to be ethical and more concerned with the social order,rather than the complexity of being.

As far as Islam is concerned,yes I agree it is dangerous,but here again the power that drives it is faith.Interpretation of holy texts is mind boggling whether Islam or Christianity,it can mean whatever one wishes to read into it.Mass murder,slavery,the oppression of women are all supported by both holy texts.