A proof of God's self-evidence

[OntheWindowStand]

what you have failed to realize though is that your at the point where you think Christians are to be pitied because you don't see the Bible as real or inspired by god if these things are true it hasn't been muddled by man that is when faith comes in.

If this is your belief why trust anything said in the bible if it is just men writing if you don't believe what is in it why dilute it with your own beliefs then its not really holy anymore so don't use it.

[Protoman2050]

Originally Posted by OntheWindowStand

Indeed he did, philosophy in the Bible. That actually reminds me Paul actually get into a deep discussion with the philosophers in one the towns he was staying in sorry i cant remember which

It was at Athens, when he was appearing before the Aeropagus; read in BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: Acts 17:16-34;

[OntheWindowStand]

Thanks man I didn't know where to look and it was bugging me that I didn't know lol.

[Protoman2050]

Originally Posted by OntheWindowStand

what you have failed to realize though is that your at the point where you think Christians are to be pitied because you don't see the Bible as real or inspired by god if these things are true it hasn't been muddled by man that is when faith comes in.

If this is your belief why trust anything said in the bible if it is just men writing if you don't believe what is in it why dilute it with your own beliefs then its not really holy anymore so don't use it.

Let me add that we are to be pitied iff Christianity turns out to be proven false, which no-one has been able to do satisfactorily. I have my faith when reason fails.

[Protoman2050]

Originally Posted by OntheWindowStand

Thanks man I didn't know where to look and it was bugging me that I didn't know lol.

You're very welcome. It's so nice that we can be friendly and civil even when we're philosophically at each other's throats

[midas77]

Originally Posted by Aedes

a rational proof of God's real existence, i.e. outside that realm of logic, is impossible.

A bit of clarification, Aedes, on my view of logic. I mean by logic a rational tool for arguments, the way aristotle call it organon. I intimitated in my last post, an argument sponsored by Aquinas in my last post, which is an argument from physical reality to the metaphysical existence of God. The proof is way beyond a logical existence of God. I'm aware though that the proof is grounded in the assumption of the reliability of cause and effect relationship. If we throw away this assumption then all of the FIVE Ways go away too. But it is hard , if not impossible, to philosophically invalidate causal relation. So much of philosophy and empiral science is grounded in this assumption.

Can I hear what you think about Aquinas 3rd way, the argument from contigent beings to necessary being? SUMMA THEOLOGICA: The existence of God (Prima Pars, Q. 2)

I'll post my views about this later.

[Protoman2050]

Originally Posted by midas77

A bit of clarification, Aedes, on our view of logic. I mean by logic a rational tool for arguments, the way aristotle call it organon. I intimitated in my last post, an argument sponsored by Aquinas in my last post, which is an argument from physical reality to the metaphysical existence of God. The proof is way beyond a logical existence of God. I'm aware though that the proof is grounded in the assumption of the reliability of cause and effect relationship. If we throw away this assumption the all of the FIVE Ways go away too. But it is hard , if not impossible, to philosophically invalidate causal relation. SO much of philosophy and empiral science is grounded in this assumption.

Can I hear what you think about Aquinas 3rd way, the argument from contigent beings to necessary being? SUMMA THEOLOGICA: The existence of God (Prima Pars, Q. 2)

I'll post my views about this later.[/quote][/quote]

Aquinas' proof makes a lot more sense then mine; mine was trying to twist things.

[Zetetic11235]

Originally Posted by OntheWindowStand

what you have failed to realize though is that your at the point where you think Christians are to be pitied because you don't see the Bible as real or inspired by god if these things are true it hasn't been muddled by man that is when faith comes in.

If this is your belief why trust anything said in the bible if it is just men writing if you don't believe what is in it why dilute it with your own beliefs then its not really holy anymore so don't use it.

Im assuming this is addressed to me as it follows my post.

I am not at any such point. I do not think christians are to be pittied any more than anyone else and I did not state such in any form within my last post. I do not claim that I know a better way than someone simply because they are christian. Besides, if taken allegorically, as is done by many branches of christianity, the bible does indeed have valuable ideas in it concerning equality and cooperation among other things.

I do, I suppose, pitty those who adopt the bible as a rule book before confirming their own beliefs and morals such that they truely know where they are coming from and know that those rules are ones which they can live by not out of fear but belief in them, and can thus find fellowship by meeting with like minded people with whom to discuss thier situtions and gain support and guidence from their fellow man. Without a real foundation for belief, the bible is only a book at best followed out of culutral obligation or fear.

To your second query which was followed by the mandate such that I do not use it. I appologize if you took offense at my post, however, your argument is a bit silly. Why use anything made by men? Because you find use in it; because you gain somthing by it be it perspective or elsewise. I get value out of many books aside from the bible, and many books hold similar lessons, including texts of other religions. I do think that the only perspective I can gain is that of other men or women, It is good to see things form other perspectives, it is good to see that no man is better than any other, it is good to know that no men are truely wise men and no men entirely great, and we all have our flaws. Yes I gain perspective form the teachings of jesus, whether he was devine or not, and no I will not stop finding value in the bible, for it has value to me.

[OntheWindowStand]

How can you find something useful made by man in dealing with God???
And what do you consider a Christian? you claim to not pity then claim that you do that doesn't make sense

What I gathered from that post is that parts of the Bible make sense so you use them but if that is your slant when reading your not keeping in context with how it was written

[Protoman2050]

Originally Posted by Zetetic11235

Im assuming this is addressed to me as it follows my post.

I am not at any such point. I do not think christians are to be pittied any more than anyone else and I did not state such in any form within my last post. I do not claim that I know a better way than someone simply because they are christian. Besides, if taken allegorically, as is done by many branches of christianity, the bible does indeed have valuable ideas in it concerning equality and cooperation among other things.

I do, I suppose, pitty those who adopt the bible as a rule book before confirming their own beliefs and morals such that they truely know where they are coming from and know that those rules are ones which they can live by not out of fear but belief in them, and can thus find fellowship by meeting with like minded people with whom to discuss thier situtions and gain support and guidence from their fellow man. Without a real foundation for belief, the bible is only a book at best followed out of culutral obligation or fear.

To your second query which was followed by the mandate such that I do not use it. I appologize if you took offense at my post, however, your argument is a bit silly. Why use anything made by men? Because you find use in it; because you gain somthing by it be it perspective or elsewise. I get value out of many books aside from the bible, and many books hold similar lessons, including texts of other religions. I do think that the only perspective I can gain is that of other men or women, It is good to see things form other perspectives, it is good to see that no man is better than any other, it is good to know that no men are truely wise men and no men entirely great, and we all have our flaws. Yes I gain perspective form the teachings of jesus, whether he was devine or not, and no I will not stop finding value in the bible, for it has value to me.

That sums my belief about faith in the Bible right there. "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; a good understanding have all those who do His commandments; His praise endures forever." (Ps 111:10, NASB)

Take up Christianity iff you believe in a Supreme Being who created all that you see and are looking for true inner peace.