Consciousness and the World

[Holiday20310401]

Could consciousness itself be an example of external scalfolding, a force upon the mind rather than creation of the mind? I honestly don't believe that but nice to here some supporting points to that.

[Richardgrant]

Mind and God are One, what I see in the material world is a reflection of Mind (God) in motion,which is the effect, this has no substance, matter is but motion. Richardgrant

[eternalstudent2]

Hmmm, consciousness itself as a scaffolding, as taking the mind towards something further. Now we're getting close to teleology, and are perhaps flirting with religious interpretations. I'm not very good at arguing teleology and theology, one way or the other, so I'm going to get off the elevator on the floor housing that most nonreligious of religions, Buddhism. I'm not a practicing Buddhist, but from what I know of it, Buddhism does seem to emphasize meditation as a very important practice, as perhaps the best way of "getting it". Buddhist tradition doesn't seem to talk and speculate very much about whatever that "it" might be; they seem to say "sit and breath", then go live life.

I have had some limited success with meditation, and I do appreciate that it requires "conscious effort" to achieve. So in a way, consciousness could be said to scaffold the meditative experience. And to the degree that you believe that meditative experience is important to understanding reality in a higher way, or at least in a different and supplementary way than via the forms of conscious experience and cognition which western philosophers typically utilize, then perhaps consciousness and cognitive discipline does (or could) "scaffold" the mental realm towards some form of "wisdom".

But actually, couldn't good old western philosophy itself be considered a form of conscious scaffolding meant to direct mentality towards wisdom? And is wisdom and its attainment the big teleological end? Well, whatever the case .... I for one like it! (even if I've only had occasional tastes of it)

Jim G.

[paulhanke]

... maybe western philosophy is one example of a kind of consciousness that would be impossible without external scaffolding (such as scrolls, codices, books, the Internet, etc.) ... how one experiences self and the world in light of ingesting centuries worth of evolved insights and ideas could be significantly different than how one experiences self and the world in light of only having access to a relatively minute set of oral traditions ...

[eternalstudent2]

Originally Posted by paulhanke

... maybe western philosophy is one example of a kind of consciousness that would be impossible without external scaffolding (such as scrolls, codices, books, the Internet, etc.) ... how one experiences self and the world in light of ingesting centuries worth of evolved insights and ideas could be significantly different than how one experiences self and the world in light of only having access to a relatively minute set of oral traditions ...

Yes, good point, the "long debate" of western philosophy could well be viewed as an external scaffold. But allow me take it another step (or go down trying). Perhaps the person who invests much time and effort into understanding and pondering the various themes of the western world's "school of wisdom-love" establishes internal structures within his or her mind, patterns of neuron connectivity that amount to "internal scaffolds". And hopefully, these scaffolds allow some desirable mind-state to emerge, some greater wisdom that may allow us to live better (hard to say if it has any ultimate survival value, in the natural selection sense; but perhaps).

Thinking back to Clark's book on PDP, an immediate question might be how the models of philosophical / critical thinking occur within a PDP-based computing structure, given that they appear to function more like classical symbol-processing, like rule-based computer programs of the good old linear / Von Neumann variety (not of the PDP-like "object oriented programming" style that you Java programmers are familiar with). But Clark uses many words in this book to establish that the brain may well be of a mixed-computing design, with linear symbol processors occurring as "virtual machines" floating on / carried out by a PDP understructure (which also forms the abstractions and concepts that are then symboled and manipulated, eventually reaching the social level through language communication).

So, western philosophy, for those who value it, might be seen to exist in the brain as a 'virtual machine'; i.e., an 'internal scaffold'. Now, as to the teleology of that which may emerge with the benefit of this scaffolding, well . . . perhaps it's wisdom, perhaps it's 'cosmic consciousness', perhaps it's meditative 'inner peace', perhaps it's theological realization and salvation, perhaps it's the escape from the Platonic cave and the view of the true forms, perhaps it's a life of virtue and contribution, perhaps it's the highest appreciation of beauty and sybaritic pleasure. I suppose that this is all part of the long debate, which goes on and on. And it is that which makes philosophy fun! (I hope).

Jim G
An Eternal Student Of / For Life

[boagie]

Originally Posted by paulhanke

... maybe western philosophy is one example of a kind of consciousness that would be impossible without external scaffolding (such as scrolls, codices, books, the Internet, etc.) ... how one experiences self and the world in light of ingesting centuries worth of evolved insights and ideas could be significantly different than how one experiences self and the world in light of only having access to a relatively minute set of oral traditions ...

paulhanke

"He who knows the most, must mourn the deepest orr the fatal truth, the tree of knowledge is not that of life." Byron

[paulhanke]

Originally Posted by eternalstudent2

But Clark uses many words in this book to establish that the brain may well be of a mixed-computing design, with linear symbol processors occurring as "virtual machines" floating on / carried out by a PDP understructure ...

... while I'm leaning away from PDP as the understructure (I'm reading an interesting book that asks if the brain is more of an edge-of-chaos dynamic system, given the ubiquity of these in nature) I'm certainly on board with the "virtual machine" concept ... but let's take it one step further - the understructure of these virtual machines (ranging from simple symbol manipulation systems all the way to consciousness?) is not just the brain - it's the brain + body + world ... stated another way, take away the brain and the virtual machine ceases to function; take away the body and the virtual machine ceases to function; take away the world and the virtual machine ceases to function ...

Originally Posted by eternalstudent2

... perhaps it's a life of virtue and contribution, perhaps it's the highest appreciation of beauty and sybaritic pleasure. I suppose that this is all part of the long debate, which goes on and on. And it is that which makes philosophy fun! (I hope).

[paulhanke]

Originally Posted by boagie

"He who knows the most, must mourn the deepest orr the fatal truth, the tree of knowledge is not that of life." Byron

"He who knows the most, he who knows what sweets and virtues are in the ground, the waters, the plants, the heavens, and how to come at these enchantments, is the rich and royal man." Emerson

Byron was a pessimist!!!

[boagie]

Originally Posted by paulhanke

"He who knows the most, he who knows what sweets and virtues are in the ground, the waters, the plants, the heavens, and how to come at these enchantments, is the rich and royal man." Emerson Byron was a pessimist!!!

paulhanke.

Not bad if that is what was mean't, unfortunately it was not. His point was that scholarship in an individaul, the secondhand experience of such a life does not compare with actual experience, to read about a life, or to live one. The tree of knowledge you see, is not the tree of life. The holy grail you might say, is experience, first hand experience, that is life. As to his pessimism, what can I tell you, he was a Christian, addressing Christians, depressing!!

[paulhanke]

Originally Posted by boagie

Not bad if that is what was mean't ...

... ah, well - that's what I get for pulling quotes willy-nilly off the web, eh?