Classic Law Problem

[VideCorSpoon]

This is a classic Leo Katz example of criminal intention.

The question is; “Diane, Kate, and Benjamin are walking together in the Sahara desert. Kate and Diane knows that Benjamin has been cheating on them, so they plan to kill him. Before leaving Asyut, Diane poisioned Ben's water canister. During the trip, Kate, without knowing what Diane did, punctured Ben's canister and the poison drained. And then Ben died of thirst. (Diane and Kate later became lesbians.) Anyhoo, who killed Ben?”

Diana and Kate possess what is known as malice aforethought. They intentionally, before the crime was committed, considered the crime and carried through with actions that were intended to cause Benjamin harm. Like the question says… “they plan to kill him (Benjamin).” But there is problem with premeditation at this point. Guilty thoughts do not equal guilty crimes, so at this point, there is no reason to suppose that either Kate or Diane are guilty.

But the question is whether Diane or Kate or both are responsible for Benjamin’s death.

Diane poisons Benjamins water first. But Kate independently puts a hole in Benjamin’s canteen. By all superficial accounts, Kate is clearly responsible because it was that final causation that killed Benjamin, as he died from thirst and not poison. But Kate is not the only person responsible. The intention to kill Benjamin was clear, but also the attempt. The law of attempts basically states that a failed crime can still be a crime. Though the poisoned water never touched Benjamin’s lips, the intent of Diane and Kate makes them accomplices in a criminal act, and the attempt to kill was clearly there. I think the main thing to think about is the primary legal principle in the matter, which is an act (unless interrupted) constitutes a crime… is a criminal attempt. However, an act, which even if completed, wouldn’t be crime, is not.

So basically, Both Kate and Diane are guilty under malice aforethought, intent, and criminal attempt, but under precedence of the law and a very hazy view of the duty of care, Diane could theoretically walk away.

Also, I second krazy kaju… the hot lesbian defense is a tough defense to beat in a court of law. And although I am joking to a point… I am partially not. You would be surprised what something like that could do to sway a case. Look at Deborah Lefave.

[GoshisDead]

What the question and discussion is failing to explain is what is the law concerning this situation in the place where the act happened. Maybe if we were to move the scenario to the Mojave Desert, we could discuss American law which seems to be the reference point for this discussion. If we aren't framing the question within the cannonical law of some place (governing body) we are not discussing law, we are discussing ethics.

[VideCorSpoon]

Within the world of hypothetical’s, anything is possible. Mohave, Sahara, the lunar desert, it doesn’t matter. But you are right about the locus of the event. Although victor does mention Asyut, so it is in Egypt, so we would have to have a loose version of Sharia law? But the hypothetical is a version of a Leo Katz argument that is discussed in first term of law school, so it is fairly well known, though there are a great degree of ways the problem can be approached… which makes it such a great question.

But subjectively, isn’t ethics a species of law to begin with? Also, canonical law denotes Christian theory, not legal principle. Though there are a few Christian influences, American law shares more similarities with roman and Greek custom… which were particularly pagan.

I think it is very arguable that we are discussing ethics, partly because it is a question of blame (and its extensions) and that it is a philosophy of law thread… which does not mean that ethics should be discounted, only legal thought should be considered.

[GoshisDead]

I would assert that the creation of Law is an ethical issue the execution of law in necessarily anethical. If ethics were considered in the execution of law, the law itself would be rendered moot. Justice is Blind refers more than simply to the equal treatment of the accused.

[VideCorSpoon]

I’m curious to hear your elaboration on the fact that the creation of law is an ethical issue and the execution of law is unethical.

But I would surmise from your statement that the law in general is problematic in its creation as you consider it founded on ethical issues, which is considered moot (by the way, fantastic word) when incorporated.

I would say that both the creation and execution of law is a practical issue. Naturalism and the law never mesh well, and ethics plays that part very well. There have been some very big problems whenever ethics becomes involved in the law, whether it be the formation of that law or the carrying out of that law. But still... it’s a classic battle between naturalism and positivism.

But I did not say that justice refers just to the equal treatment of the accused. If anything, I support the legitimization of lady justice being blinded in the first place. When they say wear safety goggles... THEY MEAN IT!!! Justice is blind refers to the preponderance of evidence, the means of that judgment, and the relativistic nature of the law.

[GoshisDead]

The application/execution is anethical meaning, having nothing to do with ethics, rather than unethical. Once a law is made with its accoutrement of established interpretations, it is ideally supposed to be universally applied. The universal application of the law cannot in itself be ethical. Ethical application of law renders the law moot, as it could never be applied universally. This is not the say that there aren't ethical and possibly unethical processes in the court system itself e.g. juries, arguments of passion, arguments of sympathy, character witnesses, judges etc... But the law itself is supposedly blind and universally applicable. The ethical issue as it applies to the law itself is in its making.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by Victor Eremita

Diane, Kate, and Benjamin are walking together in the Sahara desert. Kate and Diane knows that Benjamin has been cheating on them, so they plan to kill him. Before leaving Asyut, Diane poisioned Ben's water canister. During the trip, Kate, without knowing what Diane did, punctured Ben's canister and the poison drained. And then Ben died of thirst. (Diane and Kate later became lesbians.)

Well, this would all depend on what comes out in court. If it is found that they both attempted to kill Ben, then both could be found guilty of Attempted Murder which in the US could carry the same sentence as if they had both been successful.

Technically speaking, the attempt to poison Ben was done by Diane and even though Diane was unsuccessful in killing Ben by way of the poison, she actually carried out the act of attempted murder willfully and arbitrarily. Even though Ben died of thirst, I think a US Court would find Diane more to be the guilty party than Kate. Although Kate wanted to kill Ben, a hole in his canister before a trip would not be considered murder, it would be more the intention of Kate so it would be a tough case to find Kate guilty of anything. Of course, it would all depend on what was said in court.

So, in my opinion, Kate would be found innocent and Diane found guilty of murder in a US Court. Kate could be however found guilty of a lesser charge or guilty by association.

Philosophically, Benjamin killed himself. It was his responsibility to make sure he was prepared for his trip and that his canister had water. He also attracted these two women into his life and then attracted the desire to be killed by both of them through his actions.

Interesting law problem and some interesting responses. In the USA, an attempted crime can carry the same weight as if the crime was actually committed, however it has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt... reasonable doubt being the keyword.

... Actually, we're lacking a lot of information to come to a conclusion on this. Were Kate and Diane present when Ben died? Could they have prevented him from dying? This could get real technical.

[No0ne]

Originally Posted by Victor Eremita

Diane, Kate, and Benjamin are walking together in the Sahara desert. Kate and Diane knows that Benjamin has been cheating on them, so they plan to kill him. Before leaving Asyut, Diane poisioned Ben's water canister. During the trip, Kate, without knowing what Diane did, punctured Ben's canister and the poison drained. And then Ben died of thirst. (Diane and Kate later became lesbians.)

Anyhoo, who killed Ben? Diane's poison never touched Ben's lips and Kate actually saved Ben from the poison.

Tough question, I think. Both are guilty of attempted murder; but is there sufficient cause for the charge of murder? For whom?

I chose Diane (just flipped a coin hehe)

Your presentation is a little flawed... due to the fact that Ben died from thirst, it seem's that Diane and Kate would die from the same thing, since they both are still in the desert with no water...

But if they had not died, it's left to there intent, hence was it her intent to poked a hole in his water bottle.

...Also, to charge someone with attempted murder, you must prove that they had intended to commit murder, and in this case, there would be no way to prove that since he had died from lack of water, unless they admit that they had intended to murder him. So it would come back to the poked hole in the water bottle, was it intentional or not, which also cannot be done unless they admit, or that you prove that the force and angle used to poke the hole was not formed by the action that they said it happend from, then you would have ground's to speculate that they had intented to create a hole in his water bottle, due to the fact that there testamony dosnt match the force and angle that was used to make the hole.(they could just say that they where confused from the lack of water and forgot the facts...) So a case like this would be tricky to land a charge on one or or both of them for attempted murder.

The smoking gun would be the angle and force that was used to make the hole macthed with there testamony of how the hole was created that would make a speculation stick or not...

Yet there are two of them, and each could just point the finger at one another, so it seem's like this case could get very long and tricky...The way how to block that is to keep them seperate till one of them slips in interagation, by playen both of them by saying the other has said it was you...(That's an old trick tho...but what work's, work's)--(there are other legal methods aswell that work just as great)

It's why its a classic law problem ^.^, dang double play case make's it hard to land a conviction on one of the two...