Freedom vs. Security

[Aedes]

Originally Posted by Arjen

In self defence I would like to point out that there also was a lot of resistance against the Germans in WWII.

Yes. There was certainly resistance in addition to complicity. And this of course was true everywhere else that the Germans set foot -- in Scandinavia, France, Denmark, Belgium, Hungary, southeastern Europe (as opposed to Poland, USSR, and the Baltic States which were effectively run by the SS and their allies throughout the war).

I did not mean to impune the Dutch unfairly. My only point is that it's hard for any nation or any people to be sanctimonious about its past -- the difference with the big, powerful nations is scale.

[Arjen]

Originally Posted by Aedes

Yes. There was certainly resistance in addition to complicity. And this of course was true everywhere else that the Germans set foot -- in Scandinavia, France, Denmark, Belgium, Hungary, southeastern Europe (as opposed to Poland, USSR, and the Baltic States which were effectively run by the SS and their allies throughout the war).

I did not mean to impune the Dutch unfairly. My only point is that it's hard for any nation or any people to be sanctimonious about its past -- the difference with the big, powerful nations is scale.

I know, but I still wanted to defend my own heritage, although I am only three quarters Dutch. The last quarter is of German decent. My great grand father fought in the German kriegs-marine during WWII. After the war my father was adopted by a Dutch family. It is not something I am proud of. I identify more with my Dutch ancestors.

Anyway, perhaps I should not hold the topic back any longer. I think every people have skeletons in the closet.

[Holiday20310401]

Originally Posted by Arjen

I know, but I still wanted to defend my own heritage, although I am only three quarters Dutch. The last quarter is of German decent. My great grand father fought in the German kriegs-marine during WWII. After the war my father was adopted by a Dutch family. It is not something I am proud of. I identify more with my Dutch ancestors.

Anyway, perhaps I should not hold the topic back any longer. I think every people have skeletons in the closet.

Lol, we saved your country back in the day. My dad's been to Holland and he says you guys are really nice. I'm also a quarter german, and irish in decent. At least thats what my mom says.

[Henrik]

Originally Posted by Zetetic11235

What, then, are we to make of the present situation concerning hypothetical terrorism. How do we ensure our freedom and security when the measures must be preventative rather than punative, and offenders are not defined until they have offended. The offenders cross all possible boundries, they are citizens, and non citizens, they are muslim and not muslim, but they are united generally by goal and ideology (or are they?).

How do you perceive the threat? Do you consider it of the same importance that those who support the patriot act do? Would you rather keep your freedom in light of the danger, do you not believe that the danger is as great as some would have you think and suspect that ulterior motives are in play?

Essentially the goal of this thread is to address the methodology for dealing with the current situations and attitudes surrounding the issue of terroristic activity.

I think Americans must stop calling muslim extremists "Bad guys", They're just as bad as you are. I'm of course not saying that you have these views, but Americans generally. I think terrorism is a product of a mix between American intervention in muslim-dominated, the feeling of being converted into western culture, and a little drop of religious fanaticism. When i see Bush talking on the television, it seems like he has a very childish view. It seems like he's making a black-white picture of the world. "We are kind and they are bad, lets bomb them!" As I see it, 9/11 is nothing compared to things american forces have done in the name of justice. I hope Obama will survive the next four years and give me a better view of America. ...If he's more than just a cool guy with good speeching skills though.

You Americans, this wasn't meant to insult you, I'm just telling how my surroundings and my innate intellect have formed my opinions.

[Didymos Thomas]

As an American, Henrik, I agree with much of what you say. Muslim extremists do terrible things, but many these people also face terrible circumstances. The US, and other colonial powers like the British and French, bear great responsibility for the current violence between the Muslim and Western world.

And yes, 9/11 isn't nearly as awful as some American campaigns of terror. Take our bombing of South East Asia, for example. Or the number of civilians killed in Iraq.

[Henrik]

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

As an American, Henrik, I agree with much of what you say. Muslim extremists do terrible things, but many these people also face terrible circumstances. The US, and other colonial powers like the British and French, bear great responsibility for the current violence between the Muslim and Western world.

And yes, 9/11 isn't nearly as awful as some American campaigns of terror. Take our bombing of South East Asia, for example. Or the number of civilians killed in Iraq.

Yepp.
My point is that Americans are "bad guys", terrorists are bad guys, and I can be a bad guy too!
...an innate side of me that I try the best I can to suppress.

I'm close to moving off topic now, arent I??

[Henrik]

Originally Posted by Henrik

Yepp.
My point is that Americans are "bad guys", terrorists are bad guys, and I can be a bad guy too!
...an innate side of me that I try the best I can to suppress.

My definition of "bad" in this case is prejudice, hatred etc.

[Joe]

oh boy, a topic where I can say two words that explain the worlds entire problem when it comes to war.

Difference of power.

Those who do not fall under this category because they have no economical or military power, are obvious examples of why they generally are not at war with other countries.

Power is Dominance. Both internal and internationally. Hey wait a minute........ Internal freedom vs. International Security.......International freedom vs. Internal security.

Sorry, its very easy to mix these terms together.