Ideas to Reform the Penal System for Economic Gain

[as0l0]

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

Then count me as someone lobbying against such laws.

Tyranny can come from a majority - Plato taught us that.

Every legal code, however brutal and arbitrary, could be termed a 'user pays' system in this way. The people know the conditions, for them to exist under the conditions is to accept them, right? See, I don't really buy that. I think civil disobedience is a valuable tool. And if upon my second offense the government offs my head, how can I protest? How can anyone protest?

then let's move on to the society that doesn't value money or personal gain above all else. I remember Plato mentioning something about that too....

[Didymos Thomas]

Absolutely - not only do I agree with you about society, but you're right about Plato.

All much easier said than done, I'm afraid. What you describe requires a great deal of self control.

[as0l0]

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

What you describe requires a great deal of self control.

well we could kill all the people without self control

I think Plato would agree.

But seriously. This thread is part of the problem. "How can we make money of prisoners (or crime)".

[Zetetic11235]

Is it? It lead to your discussion and realization of the exact problem so I would contest that it is part of the solution.

Didymos, you are right, education is most often the key to solving problems of this sort, but also; its easier to throw a bandaid over somthing such as ethanol fuel or adderol when it is very far from a proper solution and everyone knows it. It is not simply education, if it were things would be much easier, it is human weakness. Ignorance, lazyness, emotional haste, all negatives play on the same team and we must redirect the tide of negatives as best we can.

[Didymos Thomas]

well we could kill all the people without self control

I think Plato would agree.

Ah, but I often disagree with Plato - especially when we talk of politics. His criticisms of democracy (majority rule, as we mentioned earlier) , however, are difficult to overcome.

Didymos, you are right, education is most often the key to solving problems of this sort, but also; its easier to throw a bandaid over somthing such as ethanol fuel or adderol when it is very far from a proper solution and everyone knows it. It is not simply education, if it were things would be much easier, it is human weakness. Ignorance, lazyness, emotional haste, all negatives play on the same team and we must redirect the tide of negatives as best we can.

This might be interesting - how to we overcome ignorance other than by education? What other systematic solution is there, apart from education, that could significantly contribute to the general understanding, work ethic, emotional maturity, ect?

[Zetetic11235]

The only way I know of is mental conditoning, somthing most difficult and a bit tyranous, but I think it is done now to opposite ends. If we can condition people that bettering themselfs through a specific path is correct, then problem solved, somewhat... we must make sure the people not only know, but understand what is 'wrpng' and why it is so.

[Didymos Thomas]

Isn't education mental conditioning?

Then again, you mention your methods might be tyrannical. While I suggest offering and promoting education, using violence to enforce the eduction, or to encourage some other sort of mental conditioning seems counter productive. If we want mind control, we give them any freedom at all?

[Zetetic11235]

systematic forced public education is tyrannical, and I think we both know how flawed the public education system is. Teachers rights come before students rights, the teachers union and standardization of education have not in mind the improvment of education, but the norming of it to such a level that they can guarantee it to everyone. How do you keep the educators straight. Intelligence is not a substitute which can excuse ignorance, so how does noe become qualified to educate..perhapse this idea is itself deserving of a thread.

[PaulG]

I know there hasn't been any activity on this thread for a while, but I've only just signed up, so please forgive me for reactivating this.

In regard to the original concept of prisoners being employed in their given specialties, speaking from some 14 years experience in the criminal justice system, the numbers of highly qualified prisoners (at least in the Australian system) is significantly limited. Speaking from an Australian perspective, the majority of prisoners have limited vocational skills or employment histories. Also, prisoner employment is legislated to ensure that prisons, both State and private, don't have an unfair advantage over privately owned businesses. Prisoners' wages in Australian gaols are fixed at rates well below anything paid in the community, this would give prison industries an unfair advantage in tendering for contracts. Also, employment is voluntary, so problems could arise in ensuring the completion of contracts.

Now, the concept of the penal system as a rehabilitative tool. There is research (I can't think of the references now, but they can be easily found on the net) indicating that employment and stable housing on release from prison has a big impact on recidivism. If the majority of prisoners have limited vocational skills and employment history, the use of prison time to provide the necessary education and employment opportunities could be seen as going some way to assisting prisoners to not re-offend. In regard to payment, prisoners should be paid going industry rates, but should also be expected to pay their own way in prison (accommodation and food at going commercial rates) in order to provide them with the skills to manage their lives more effectively in the community. This could be seen as slavery, coercion or any other label you care to place on it. On the other hand, it could be seen as an opportunity to provide prisoners with the necessary skills to stay out of prison. This is a fairly simplistic concept and would benefit from ongoing contact with external industries as is happening in some parts of South East Asia. Australian prisons do have limited "works release" programs where prisoners are allowed to work outside the gaols in private industries. Those programs should be extended and encouraged. We continually hear about a skills shortage in this country, however, we allow a large number of prisoners to be released with no significant improvement in their skill levels or work ethics. Seems silly, doesn't it?

BTW, in terms of the war on drugs and other harsh penalties, check out this site: The Netherlands
Also, the US has the death penalty in some states, however, murders still occur in those states. Prison, the death penalty and prohibition do not stop crime, they only make the general populace feel more comfortable.

PaulG.

[Didymos Thomas]

In regard to the original concept of prisoners being employed in their given specialties, speaking from some 14 years experience in the criminal justice system, the numbers of highly qualified prisoners (at least in the Australian system) is significantly limited. Speaking from an Australian perspective, the majority of prisoners have limited vocational skills or employment histories.

This is very much the case in the US, and I would imagine true in most countries. The poor and poorly educated are far more likely to go to prison.

Now, the concept of the penal system as a rehabilitative tool. There is research (I can't think of the references now, but they can be easily found on the net) indicating that employment and stable housing on release from prison has a big impact on recidivism.

The Japanese system takes advantage of this. For first offenses, incarceration is a life of rehabilitation. The day is filled with activities; regimented exercise, meditation, and learning some trade keep the inmates busy. Apparently, the system is reasonably successful; low recidivism rates.

BTW, in terms of the war on drugs and other harsh penalties, check out this site: The Netherlands

And the Dutch system has worked - they have managed to lower drug use. Meanwhile, the US struggles to cope with very serious methamphetamine and heroin problems and spends billions in futile projects.

Also, the US has the death penalty in some states, however, murders still occur in those states. Prison, the death penalty and prohibition do not stop crime, they only make the general populace feel more comfortable.

Not only does this make intuitive sense, the facts seem to support you as well. But the public doesn't buy empirical data, they buy their immediate emotional reactions.