Ideas to Reform the Penal System for Economic Gain

[Didymos Thomas]

because they wouldn't re-offend...

You also mentioned other crimes besides repeat offenders.

Widespread executions is the method of tyrants.

[Zetetic11235]

It most definitely takes a bit more than a couple tablespoons of nutmeg, but I know what you mean, eat a dozen wooly marygold seeds (high LSA content).
I completely agree with you, however, it is not going to fly with the majority of the voting populus as these considerations take a couple generations to sink in...but it is most certainly better to do it right all at once than to continually revise and improve the laws. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that people's fears are too easily played upon to count on rational decision making, you have to wean people off of their predjudices. The only way seems to be through baby steps, almost an induced "slippery slope" as it were.

[Didymos Thomas]

It most definitely takes a bit more than a couple tablespoons of nutmeg, but I know what you mean, eat a dozen wooly marygold seeds (high LSA content).

Wikipedia claims 4-8 tablespoons, but I really don't know as I've never been dumb enough to try the stuff. Absolutely right about marigold seeds.

I completely agree with you, however, it is not going to fly with the majority of the voting populus as these considerations take a couple generations to sink in.

The people were easily mislead about these drugs in the first place. We went from selling marijuana in Sears-Roebuck to locking people up for tiny amounts in less than a generation. Granted, the progression to Nixon's War on Drugs took a generation, but that was more a matter of having the people grow used to the stink of the initial drug laws before giving them the real mess. Either way, I don't see why the majority of people cannot adopt a reasonable attitude towards recreational drug use - if the government is honest with them.

Already a majority of Americans do not see marijuana as a dangerous drug, despite the government and corporate propaganda. Our society is still free enough that truth can take root if enough people look around. Imagine how quickly the stigma and bias would evaporate if the politicians and bureaucrats stopped lying and adopted and honest message. At the very least we might stop force feeding our children speed.

but it is most certainly better to do it right all at once than to continually revise and improve the laws. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that people's fears are too easily played upon to count on rational decision making, you have to wean people off of their predjudices. The only way seems to be through baby steps, almost an induced "slippery slope" as it were.

Change has to be incremental. Slow progress allows us to better address our mistakes. Instantaneous upheavals leave everything a mess - and in the case of drugs, that includes a multi-trillion dollar market place employing millions.

[Zetetic11235]

The speed actually does work in adhd afflicted people, my brother is one example of someone helped by the drugs. Do not disgard the whole add/hd movement just because it in large part has deformed into a cure all for kids that don't behave. It most definitely has been gone about the wrong way and has lost much of its scientific validity especially with the ignorant public school system pushing it now through their cherry picked psychs. The ignorant mishandleing of the disease and misunderstanding of its characteristics have damaged those who are severly afflicted.
That being said, I know a great many people who have messed around with a great many drugs and still lead fairly productive, normal lives. I have also known a few that went downhill and became paranoid on pills, hooked on oxy ect and its not cool, but it was their chioce to take the risk. It seems that most people who have some education and fear of the drug can control their usage of the more addictive drugs as long as they make it somthing for a rare occasion. Education is the key, if people are made well aware of the risks, the real risks, I think that responsible usage is possible. I mean hell, look at Bush and Obama, they both have had their little excursions into the drug world and look at where they are now, granted that some drugs are playthings for the rich and detrimental to the poor(this should be made a main point in drug education, the dangers to different socio-economic groups).

[Didymos Thomas]

The speed actually does work in adhd afflicted people, my brother is one example of someone helped by the drugs. Do not disgard the whole add/hd movement just because it in large part has deformed into a cure all for kids that don't behave. It most definitely has been gone about the wrong way and has lost much of its scientific validity especially with the ignorant public school system pushing it now through their cherry picked psychs. The ignorant mishandleing of the disease and misunderstanding of its characteristics have damaged those who are severly afflicted.

My family spend a small fortune testing my brother for ADD and dyslexia. He was diagnosed and put on speed. The drug helped him in school, to be sure. And he is not the only example I know of personally who benefited from the use of speed to treat ADD/ADHD.

Apart from the general criticisms of the drug being over prescribed I have one very serious warning, even for those who might benefit from the drug in the short term.

Amphetamine is a highly addictive drug. Even if the drug is useful for some treatment, 25 milligrams a day is the beginning of a nasty drug addiction. And I've seen that addiction play out - children who began taking the stuff at eight or ten are blowing lines in the back of classrooms at fifteen. I don't think the parents were ready, and I think the parents were mislead about the nature of the drug.

But we are in absolute agreement on your general point - education is key

The problem is that we lie to our youth. We give them mantras like 'Just Say No'. We teach them that all drugs are always bad and destructive. Of course, when they smoke their first joint they realize they were lied to. Now they don't know what to believe about the truly dangerous drugs - like cocaine and heroin.

[as0l0]

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

You also mentioned other crimes besides repeat offenders.

Widespread executions is the method of tyrants.

well that was my whole point, there just wouldn't be re-offenders.

Anyway, I didn't really notice it before, but the thread title talks about economic gain. I wonder if a lot of crime is caused by, or for, economic gain.

[Didymos Thomas]

well that was my whole point, there just wouldn't be re-offenders.

Okay. I suppose if we have no trouble with tyranny, then the wide spread executions would be effective. But again, I am not convinced that this would have long term effects. Once the tyrant is dead, who is there to fear? Wouldn't we see a new crop of criminals every generation?

Anyway, I didn't really notice it before, but the thread title talks about economic gain. I wonder if a lot of crime is caused by, or for, economic gain.

Of course. Damn near all of it.

[Zetetic11235]

With all due respect, you dont seem to understand thomas. My brother has Adhd as well, without it he gets violent as well as hyper and becomes very impusive, in fact, he is so impulsive that we were worried for a long time about him hurting someone. Its probably not a very usual manifestation and it may be combined with other problems, but he needs the medicine in and out of school. It is specifically Addero that he uses, a few other types caused a lot of weight loss. I have met other kids with severe adhd, they need the medicine.

[as0l0]

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

Okay. I suppose if we have no trouble with tyranny, then the wide spread executions would be effective. But again, I am not convinced that this would have long term effects. Once the tyrant is dead, who is there to fear? Wouldn't we see a new crop of criminals every generation?

it's a user pays system. no one need die unless they choose to.

tyranny seems to be based more on an individual holing tyrannical power. I'd expect the majority to agree with the punishments. If the majority don't agree, then so be it.

[Didymos Thomas]

With all due respect, you dont seem to understand thomas. My brother has Adhd as well, without it he gets violent as well as hyper and becomes very impusive, in fact, he is so impulsive that we were worried for a long time about him hurting someone. Its probably not a very usual manifestation and it may be combined with other problems, but he needs the medicine in and out of school. It is specifically Addero that he uses, a few other types caused a lot of weight loss. I have met other kids with severe adhd, they need the medicine.

Right. Again, my brother also benefited from the treatment. I agree, there are cases where the drug's use seems to be justified. My brother, and apparently your brother, are two such cases.

However, I also know that the drug is wildly overprescribed - and this sometimes occurs in cases where the drug is useful. Even when prescribed in appropriate amounts, the drug is addictive and easily abused. Early use of prescribed speed is often the beginning of later problems with addictive drugs. Education is the best remedy.

it's a user pays system. no one need die unless they choose to.

tyranny seems to be based more on an individual holing tyrannical power. I'd expect the majority to agree with the punishments. If the majority don't agree, then so be it.

Then count me as someone lobbying against such laws.

Tyranny can come from a majority - Plato taught us that.

Every legal code, however brutal and arbitrary, could be termed a 'user pays' system in this way. The people know the conditions, for them to exist under the conditions is to accept them, right? See, I don't really buy that. I think civil disobedience is a valuable tool. And if upon my second offense the government offs my head, how can I protest? How can anyone protest?