Abortion

[Peter]

At a local philosophy discussion group which I attend, we got round to discussing the ethics of abortion (a hot topic, I know!)

I said that I was dissatisfied with my own ideas on this topic. I am clear that at the beginning of the pregnancy, all or virtually all the rights are with the mother. Equally, by the later stages, the preponderance of rights lie with the foetus. My problem is that I can find no clear point at which the foetus becomes a child with attendant rights. No such sharp transition exists, just as there is no single point at which a child becomes an adult. Both are developmental processes, not step processes. So when the law fixes an age at which the foetus "becomes" a child, or the child "becomes" an adult, we all know these are necessary fictions.

One consideration that would be relevant in determining the cut-off point for abortion is the stage at which the foetus becomes sensitive to any pain incurred during the abortion process. But when does pain-sensitivity start? Looking at different websites I see that estimates vary widely, from 15 weeks to 28 weeks - and guess what - these estimates are closely correlated with the ideological stances of the writers. Those who have a liberal attitude to abortion place the onset of pain-sensitivity late in gestation, anti-abortionists insist that it begins early.

Is there any hope of some neutral authoritative information on this crucial question?

Peter

[Aristoddler]

It varies from country to country.
Most often, abortions are legal in the first trimester only. An abortion in the second trimester is something that usually (again, varies from country to country) requires a medical expert's consent, with justification. Third trimester abortions are rare in almost every country, unless the mother's life is at immediate risk.

You can find information regarding this topic in your country's criminal code under Family Law.

Switzerland and Ireland are the only two places that I can think of, where it is 100% illegal unless the mother's life is in jeopardy.

[Peter]

Thanks for that reply, Aristoddler.

In most jurisdictions, as I understand it, the time limit for abortion is based on the notion of foetal viability - the ability of the foetus to survive outside the uterus. I am interested in the idea of foetal sensitivity to the pain involved in the process as a possible criterion for a time limit. But to my disappointment I find that estimates for the onset of foetal pain-sensitivity vary considerably. It is on this last point that I am hoping for guidance.

Peter

[Aristoddler]

12 weeks in most European countries...15 in North America.

[Peter]

Aristoddler, I wonder if we are talking at cross-purposes. I want to zero-in on the question of whether the foetus feels pain during the abortion process. Are you saying that European neurologists estimate that foetal pain sensitivity begins at 12 weeks gestation while American neurologists estimate 15 weeks as the starting point? Surely not.

[Aristoddler]

No no...the law for the cut-off date is 12 in Europe, and 15 in NA.
Swiss and Dutch Doctors say that they have determined that the fetus shows signs of response to stimuli at roughly 15 weeks.
Their research was done during the cloning research that they did with Polly the Sheep...I think that was her name.

[speakerchef]

Peter,

Abortion is indeed a very hot topic!

So my question is:

Why is pain the determining factor in abortion?
Furthermore, don't some foeti develop faster than others?
Would a person unable to feel (and likely unable to move) be not a person (human, whatever word you would like to use)?
How does pain decide a person's personhood?

Peter, I'd like to know your views.

Cheers!
-sc

[Didymos Thomas]

We have to be careful when we use phrases like "person" and "human" when we talk about abortion and the fetus. A human refers to the species, so, regardless of development, the fetus is always human. The question is, when does this fetus become a "person", an individual who is assumed, generally, to have certain rights.

One thing I would like to bring up is: does it matter if the fetus is a person, or can feel pain at all? Judith Thomson's "A Defense of Abortion" is pretty famous for examing this question:
Judith Jarvis Thomson: A Defense of Abortion

The Thomson example is very controversial. Please maintain proper composure and think carefully before responding to this hot topic.
This thread is now being monitored.
Thank you
~Aristoddler

[Justin]

hmm, interesting topic indeed. I've never discussed this topic in a forum so I'll inject my 2 cents in.

What difference does it really make? I mean,... the person is not the fetus. The person is a spiritual being and the fetus is earthly matter. Should that body not make it, that person in spirit lives on. Pain doesn't matter to the energy of the spirit. Pain is an illusion created by the perception of man. When does a fetus perceive their world?

I'm not saying for and I'm not saying against. It just seems that the abortion is an effect of a greater cause. We'll never understand and control the effects until we understand and utilize the cause.

I'd rather not kill anything... to tell you the truth. Just doesn't sit right with me. I kill a spider and feel guilty about it.

So, in working to understand the cause of the effect, which is abortion in this case (the effect), I'm coming to the reality that the only thing one has control over changing is his or her perception. That same perception will create circumstances and 'coincidences' to manifest that which is perceived to be.

We... As in, Mankind... Must start with the cause. Abortion is an effect of many other problems world wide. What causes abortion?

Needless to say, if people start changing their thought patterns and perceptions, it will effect those around them. "Attitudes are contagious" - and the more people become balanced and in tune with their spiritual selves, the more positive energy they'll send out to light up the world. That alone would solve many of the effects we so often get ourselves entangled in.

Everything is going to balance and it's going to continue to balance for eternity. - This may not be the best response to abortion, but these are my thoughts.

[NeitherExtreme]

Originally Posted by Justin

What difference does it really make? I mean,... the person is not the fetus. The person is a spiritual being and the fetus is earthly matter. Should that body not make it, that person in spirit lives on. Pain doesn't matter to the energy of the spirit. Pain is an illusion created by the perception of man. When does a fetus perceive their world?

This isn't a direct response, but while on the subject of the fetus and pain...

There is a time during pregnancy, I'm not sure when it starts, but I think it continues up to about 22 weeks, when the futus has full ability to feel physical pain yet has not developed the systems that we have to "shut off" pain above a certain level. They, of all humans, have the acute ability to feel uncontrolled pain.