Abortion

[krazy kaju]

Originally Posted by Aedes

The nervous system begins developing within a few days of conception with the formation of ectoderm. The neural plate forms around day 18, and the neural tube has closed by day 28. The nervous system finishes developing the day you die as an adult. There is nothing sacred about the third trimester.

I was mistaken when I said the third trimester.

It's actually during the 22nd week, which is during the second trimester.

During the 22nd week, the brain of the fetus becomes neurologically active. I believe that at this point, it is safe to assume the fetus can actually feel the pain (considering it's not "brain dead" anymore).

[Aedes]

The fetal brain develops long before 22 weeks gestation. It's also quite active neurologically, as the fetus moves, yawns, swallows, stretches, and even makes some breathing movements before then. Heart rate is controlled by the brainstem from very early in gestation. Even development of the cortex has taken place before 22 weeks, though not much of it is myelinated.

I wonder if there is something more specific that you're thinking of that happens around 22 weeks.

[krazy kaju]

I dunno, this was some information I attained before writing a paper on moral personhood.

From what I understood, the fetus doesn't become neurologically active until about the 22nd week.

This is the source:
Ethical views on abortion that are neither pro-life or pro-choice

I'm not sure as to how reliable the source is though.

[Aedes]

It's long, long before 22 weeks. Then again, "neurologically active" is not a term that has any meaning in embryology.

According to your link, they're using the term "neurologically active" to refer to "quickening". This is simply the maternal sensation of fetal movement. Well, my wife is 29 weeks pregnant right now and I've been able to feel the baby move since she was 17 weeks -- and she has since before then. And it doesn't happen then because the fetus becomes suddenly active -- it happens in large part because the fetus is big and strong enough to do something that the mother can feel. At any rate, the reference is not a medical or scientific one. There are degrees of neurologic activity from around 18 days gestation that develop not only through prenatal but also postnatal life -- so it's hard to come up with some specific cutoff.

[Aristoddler]

My wife is in week 30 right now. (congrats to Aedes by the way, Fatherhood is the greatest!)
Physically, the debate could last for decades with no end in sight.
But I think that it's evident that anyone who has had children can attest to the fact that although you cannot hold your child until they have taken their first breath, your emotions for them are a very real thing from the moment you realize that they have been conceived.

[OntheWindowStand]

Originally Posted by Aristoddler

It varies from country to country.
Most often, abortions are legal in the first trimester only. An abortion in the second trimester is something that usually (again, varies from country to country) requires a medical expert's consent, with justification. Third trimester abortions are rare in almost every country, unless the mother's life is at immediate risk.

You can find information regarding this topic in your country's criminal code under Family Law.

Switzerland and Ireland are the only two places that I can think of, where it is 100% illegal unless the mother's life is in jeopardy.

Good for switzerland and Ireland, at the moment of conception it is a new life just because a prostitute or whore or what ever irresponsible kind of women gets pregnant doesnt mean she should be able to terminate what she helped make

[Aedes]

Originally Posted by OntheWindowStand

at the moment of conception it is a new life

so what? not all zygotes will successfully go on to make a baby -- so do we need to regard a zygote as morally equivalent to any other human being even if the zygote goes on to form a hydatidiform mole, a choriocarcinoma, an anencephalic, or an ectopic?

[OntheWindowStand]

Originally Posted by Aedes

so what? not all zygotes will successfully go on to make a baby -- so do we need to regard a zygote as morally equivalent to any other human being even if the zygote goes on to form a hydatidiform mole, a choriocarcinoma, an anencephalic, or an ectopic?

It doesn't matter if there is a chance that it wont live chances are it will there is really nothing different between a zygote and a person other then the fact that is inside its mom.

[OntheWindowStand]

Originally Posted by Aristoddler

My wife is in week 30 right now. (congrats to Aedes by the way, Fatherhood is the greatest!)
Physically, the debate could last for decades with no end in sight.
But I think that it's evident that anyone who has had children can attest to the fact that although you cannot hold your child until they have taken their first breath, your emotions for them are a very real thing from the moment you realize that they have been conceived.

how would you feel if your wife killed and explained to you that it wasn't a person it happens everyday abortion should be outlawed ( not meaning to single you out aristoddler just seeing your point about loving your unborn child makes me think youll understand my point)

[Aedes]

Originally Posted by OntheWindowStand

It doesn't matter if there is a chance that it wont live chances are it will there is really nothing different between a zygote and a person other then the fact that is inside its mom.

Ok, so you're elevating a metastatic cancer, choriocarcinoma, to the moral level of a human being. Choriocarcinoma is one possible outcome of a fertilized egg, but not all choriocarcinomas originate as a zygote. Does that mean that it's murder to treat a choriocarcinoma with chemotherapy if it arises from a fertilized egg, but it's fine to do so if the choriocarcinoma did not arise from a fertilized egg?