Free will illusion?

[paulhanke]

Originally Posted by GoshisDead

If one is to be judged for ones sins then it is necessary that one has a non-causal utterly free will.

... is it really necessary? ... if I flip a "fair" coin, the outcome of the flip is fully determined in the instant that I flip it - and so given enough computational power and muscle control I could theoretically state with 100% certainty the outcome of my next flip ... so in the context of flipping a coin, there is no such thing as probability ... but given that I don't have anywhere near enough computational power nor muscle control, for all practical purposes there might as well be such a thing as probability ... is free will a similar kind of animal? ... that is, even if the universe is fully deterministic, given the finite constraints on the human mind, for all practical (ethical?, moral?) purposes might there as well be free will?

[Holiday20310401]

There is no 100% certainty because there will always be some unknown variable to affect the outcome. The coin may be controlled to always hit tails but it will never have 100% accuracy, because not all factors can be controlled during the action. I think anyways.

[No0ne]

Originally Posted by No0ne

You freedom depends on the thing's that your allowed or "free" to eat...

Hence freedom has been limited by another or your self, or nature.

To say it in it's absolute form-->

1."The Freedom of what choice's you can choose are limited by the freedom's of such another, your self, nature, or god"

2."Free will is the choice to choose or not to choose, and the choice to not have or have a choice to choose or not choose."

3."For if you have the choice to choose, you then have freewill."

4."If you have given your choice to choose willingly to another, nature, or god, then you have willingly given your free will to the way's of such, and still retain your choice to choose since you have willingly choosen to follow the way's of another, nature, or god."

5."If another, nature, or god, has taken your choice to choose from you, and you have not willingly choosen for such to be taken from you, then you would have no free will in the matter, and therefore would be a unwilling slave to another, nature, or god's free will."

[Henrik]

What is really free will? Is it just a man made term?
We are very vulnerable to influence, and we are very easy to manipulate. That must then be one of the factors we use to make choices.
I think we need another factor too. Isn't this second factor is just a random choice? If there is no good reason why we made a choice I'll call it contingency.

But then it's time to discuss whether contingency exists or not.

[ratta]

free Will or not to free Will. this thought is tricky some one with the knowledge of ure futre could either say dont worry everythings going to be alright or evrythings going wrong. they could demonstrate this by scratching their head right before u scratch ure head or saying a sentence that was on the tip of ure lips that u then didnt say because u felt so powerless. it says in the bible that god knows ure future i belive that there could only be one mind composed of two similar and entities both living and loving. it also says in the bible that satan knows the future to but i have learned that what ever they know means nothing coz they are all living in the present not in annother dimension. which is a relief to find out. this question really annoys me as i have thought about it alot and hate the fact that someone knows my future like every action is predictable and boring but i know this its my future and it will end on a note that most complements me and not those of another.

[Aesculapius]

I believe free will is not only the choices that you make, but whether or not you make them judged on the situation you're in. If you're choices are limited and you can only choose out of the choices that are in front of you, that's not exactly free will, even if you get to make the decision.

Free will, as said, should be free, and done willingly. If some else gives you the choices, or if the possibility choices are already chosen for you, then it's not free will.

So, the idea that free is just an illusion, is pretty much correct, from what I see. Though we get to make our own choices, our choices are limited and depend on our situation. So, no one really has any free will.

Please correct me if you think I'm wrong.

[Aphoric]

Originally Posted by Aesculapius

I believe free will is not only the choices that you make, but whether or not you make them judged on the situation you're in. If you're choices are limited and you can only choose out of the choices that are in front of you, that's not exactly free will, even if you get to make the decision.

Free will, as said, should be free, and done willingly. If some else gives you the choices, or if the possibility choices are already chosen for you, then it's not free will.

So, the idea that free is just an illusion, is pretty much correct, from what I see. Though we get to make our own choices, our choices are limited and depend on our situation. So, no one really has any free will.

Please correct me if you think I'm wrong.

What about the idea that although your choices are limited in certain situations, if you would not choose either of them willingly, you decide not to choose altogether? Is that not a demonstration of free will?

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by Aphoric

What about the idea that although your choices are limited in certain situations, if you would not choose either of them willingly, you decide not to choose altogether? Is that not a demonstration of free will?

No.

What convergence of events led to your being in a particular position on the time-space continuum to have to make a decision in the first place? Before answering this, you also must also consider what circumstances led to the creation of the situation itself, regardless of your involvement or non-involvement.

Don't like the idea of a Deterministic universe?
Try a Probabilistic universe.
Is it any better?

[xris]

I have decided i have free will so whose going to stop me believing i have free will, come on just try it ....

[Khethil]

Originally Posted by xris

I have decided i have free will so whose going to stop me believing i have free will, come on just try it ....

Haha, excellent! Bless you.

I think this sentiment, despite all our postulations of cause, effect and influence, has real human worth. It's the voice that says, "I'm going to assert this!"... really believes it and perhaps even works to overcome influences. Then maybe, just maybe, could one actually be free of constraints and do so?

I know, I know... causality, cause and effect, "where we are is where we've been" and all that. On a strictly-rational level this is all valid; and to our reasoning I firmly believe that it shows there isn't any 'free will'. But if we admit we can't know all the factors, all the influences and dynamics of these influences, can we not also admit that there exists the possibility of the ardent mind to - by will or obstinace alone - break out? If even for an instant?

This is, of course, completely aside from the real worth to human potential that believes there is choice (which to my mind may be a reason enough to buy-in). What might be the effects of embracing, too closely, the notion that "we have no choice"? A fatalistic attitude? A reticence to even try? Perhaps even skirting responsibility for ones actions? ... just tossing out stuff here as a devil's advocate.

Something to think about...