Atheists...

[Zetetic11235]

Considering the blind dogmatism present in nearly every view of nearly every person whom I have ever encountered, and the fact that dogmatism is indeed a necessity lest one falls into the pit of relentless skepticism and forms his own little miserable hell, I fail to see the problem.

Your faith in reason might bring a measure of control to the world for all who subscribe to it, however it is only superficial, progress to no ends. It shall make life easier, more predictable, perhapse. However, it is many a time when the dogmas of rationality overtake and cast out moral stances gladly. A system by which logically maximum good is done, may commit many injusticies and is indeed akin to machiavellian philosophy; the ends justify the means.

The truth is: All truths are relative and morals are all subjective. Go live life how you want/need to.

[boagie]

Zetetic,

A system which is rational and attributes morality to where it truely belongs would have to go some to match the atrocities committed by religion. Are you saying that these people who believe in a fairy god father would be monsters if they did not have this fantasy to live by? I became an agnostic at ten by twelve I was a confirmed athesit. If my life would have been better believeing in a fanstasy I would know not. There are many many more reasonable variables to consider in the quality of ones life before fastasy. Even by your standards, discussions of the existence of this fairy god father make for endless boring pointless dialogue, as an unbeliever at a philosophy site I think religion is much to prominent, which do you think philosophy owes more to reason or fastasy. If it is irrational to say a confirmed yes or a confirmed no, why are we subjected to the presentation of believers as an affirmative yes, personally I do not wish to hear about it, let them save it for church. At anyrate, if you are to be rational, you must spread your displeasure around, believers here are being consistently irrational in their claims of the existence of their fairy god father.

YouTube - Dawkins talks atheism

[Zetetic11235]

Originally Posted by boagie

Zetetic,

A system which is rational and attributes morality to where it truely belongs would have to go some to match the atrocities committed by religion. Are you saying that these people who believe in a fairy god father would be monsters if they did not have this fantasy to live by?.

You would have a tough time extrapolating any such nonsense from what I have posted.

Originally Posted by boagie

I became an agnostic at ten by twelve I was a confirmed athesit.
.

I was an agnostic by 12, and I utterly despised many of the members of the congregation of the church to which my family belonged. Arrogant, self righteous, exclusive, dogmatic. Chioce words for those people.

However, I know a few who find great value in the teachings taken as metaphores and suggestions, who do believe in a god, but do not believe that any doctrine holds any strict rules that they must live by. Rather they take the teachings and look for true meaning in them and find it. The meaning comes form them but they find comfort in the structure and community. It is a personal choice no better nor worse than the atheistic view. I have never experienced anything which I choose to call 'god' but I will not refute the views of others, there is no point in it unless they are attacking me in some way, and in general they are not.

Originally Posted by boagie

If my life would have been better believeing in a fanstasy I would know not. There are many many more reasonable variables to consider in the quality of ones life before fastasy. Even by your standards, discussions of the existence of this fairy god father make for endless boring pointless dialogue, as an unbeliever at a philosophy site I think religion is much to prominent, which do you think philosophy owes more to reason or fastasy. .

A healthy mix of both. In the end everyone believes what they want to.

Originally Posted by boagie

If it is irrational to say a confirmed yes or a confirmed no, why are we subjected to the presentation of believers as an affirmative yes, personally I do not wish to hear about it, let them save it for church. At anyrate, if you are to be rational, you must spread your displeasure around, believers here are being consistently irrational in their claims of the existence of their fairy god father.

I do not see any value in spreading displeasure in attacking the benign . If you do not want to hear of it, ignore it or make a little fantasy world where it doesn't exist and you simply see jimi hendrix live in concert instead, whatever you like.
If there is somthing malignant you find in it, make it obvious and a debate of merit might ensue.

[boagie]

If it was benign it would not be in the Whitehouse.


"All for Jesus. All for Jesus. All for Jesus. All for Jesus,"
-- Republican Candidate Sam Brownback's stump speech in Iowa.

"Between science and God, I'll stick with God if the two are in conflict."
-- Republican Candidate Mike Huckabee

"Freedom requires religion."
-- Republican Candidate Mitt Romney

"I would probably have to say yes, that the Constitution established the United States of America as a Christian nation."
-- John McCain

"Just before us is a nuclear countdown with Iran, followed by the final battle: the battle of Armageddon . . . . The end of the world as we know it is rapidly approaching. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad. The best is yet to be."
-- Televangelist and McCain endorser John Hagee

"Americans must be 'Christocrats' -- citizens of both their country and the Kingdom of God"; "And that is not a democracy; that is a theocracy"; "That means God is in control, and you are not."
-- Televangelist and McCain supporter Rod Parsley

March 13, 2008 - Sam Brownback (R-KS) introduced S. Res. 483, a resolution "recognizing the first weekend of May 2008 as 'Ten Commandments Weekend,'" which has been referred to the Senate Judiciary Committee. The resolution has one co-sponsor -- Joe Lieberman.



I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!
-- Rev. Jerry Falwell

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing people.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933


Our job is to reclaim America for Christ, whatever the cost. As the vice regents of God, we are to exercise godly dominion and influence over our neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news media, our scientific endeavors -- in short, over every aspect and institution of human society.
-- D. James Kennedy, Coral Ridge Ministries and Bush advisor.

[andykelly]

Zetetic I share your frustration - its a drag having your words twisted, but many times we humans like to see what we wish to believe was written and not what was - human nature I guess

Boagie - we've found some common ground - the quotes you listed all go to show the danger and power of belief systems being utilised for political agendas - and yes the modern day is littered with it. just like history. There's so many political movements that've given God a bad name, and continue to do so.

How about if we substitute the word God with the term a Higher Power

DISCALIMER FOR THE BENEFIT OF MY PAL BOAGIE

The above suggestion is merely for illustrative puposes

Boagie I seriously share your cyniscism, born of looking at the reality of religion - holy wars for millenia in the name of God and yes it still goes on today.

However in the year of 2008 can we explain the most fundamental of questions.

How did the universe come into being?
Did the Universe create itself ? Like auto generated ? hmm thats possible but wtf ???
Is the universe infinite?
Has the Universe always existed?
Did we only come into being the instant we were conceived?
Is death the end ?
Is life essentially a random occurence - even more unbelievable imo than if it were indeed created.


Science has taught us that the universe obeys laws - ok quantum mechanics tells us many of these laws are thrown out of the window. However the fact remains that everything in the physical universe does obey irrefutable laws - from gravity and beyond.

Additionally my pursuit of a faith is based in science as like I said a good few posts back I want the truth regardless of whether I like it or not.

Hell even one of newtons main axioms suggested that energy can't created nor destroyed - it merely changes form. What are we if not energy? What is anything but energy in one form or another.

Once again the phrase dont throw the baby out with the bathwater comes to mind - where belief systems go wrong is when people use them to justify murder ! My God is bigger and truer than your God and it's God's will that I wipe you out.

[Zetetic11235]

I shall assume you agree with everything else in my comment since you have chosen only a single sentence to respond to. You only care about a single sect of christian faith, such is evinced in your choice of examples
due to its objectionable and disgustingly self righteous stance. I agree completely, but this is a vast minority of christians, in fact, I have never even met a person with this attitude. I know that they are out there, and that they are malignant, and in bringing up the radical fundamentalists, you might have a viable debate.

hitler was a poor choice. He used christianity as a tool by which he could manipulate the populace. Plus he was never, to the extent of my knowledge, in the white house.

I think we are all aware of the ignoramouses out there with these insane renditions of the bible, however, their stances are not even ideologically coherent in respect to their chosen text. It can't be! The text is self contradictory in the way they take it. These are the people Hitler would have bent around his little finger and had executed in the night when they were no longer of use to him.

Most people who I have met that voted for bush are not evangelicals, they simply chose who they percieved to be the lesser of two evils. And lets face it, Kerry and Gore were not exactly great alternatives. Reagan beat Carter because everyone was sick of Carter who was not the greatest choice either. Reagan, for how crazy and ahlzheimer ridden he was by the end of his run, was more effective than Carter. A bit more faschist, perhapse, but more effective.

Many conservatives are atheists, many liberals are christians. It is only this rare mix of far right and evangelical that you object to.

[Zetetic11235]

AndyKelly, I appreciate the support, but Boagie simply affirmed my second point.

[andykelly]

Originally Posted by boagie

"Just before us is a nuclear countdown with Iran, followed by the final battle: the battle of Armageddon . . . . The end of the world as we know it is rapidly approaching. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad. The best is yet to be."
-- Televangelist and McCain endorser John Hagee

More shared ground boagie

That quote you gave is harrowing
These kind of lunatics (imo) are seriously dangerous.
I share your total amazement at that kind of sentiment
Thats way off the radar for me - in fact its against everything I believe in - these madmen are perpetuating this armageddon cult stuff and creating a self fulfilling propecy - lets hope mccain doesnt get in lol

[andykelly]

Originally Posted by Zetetic11235

AndyKelly, I appreciate the support, but Boagie simply affirmed my second point.

I know where boagie's coming from (or at least i think i do) and its evident you have an open mind which is the best of all human attributes - well almost lol

As the opposite (a closed mind) perpetuates the cycles of hatred and ignorance - but mankind is a herd animal I guess and few of us are brave enough to go it alone.

[boagie]

Andykelly,

The questions you present are of wonder, if you state that you know the answer, that answer is god, are you not closing the door of wonder, it seems to me that wonder is most definitely an aspect of the human spirit, so, why close it down with one premise? That to me is to high a price to pay for a conjured security. That the earth is part of something greater than itself is evident by the fact that it is an open system, so perhaps this greater than is the universe itself. That which is not lost can be most difficult to find, but even if found, it won't walk you home at night or promise you the impossible.

YouTube - 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer