Critical Thought

[William]

Can someone who is ill-at-ease concerning our eternal existence have the necessary "grit" to be a critical thinker? Can we devote the thought it takes to insure our young have a future? Is it possible for a people to universally conclude "we just don’t have enough time" to do what is right and "complete the job"? So let’s only concentrate on the "day to day" stuff and see where that will lead. We are pro’s at dealing with the immediate future and are the entrepreneur’s at applying "band-aids", but are we good at thinking about the long haul. Or do we really care. What is more important? Critical thought or Profits?

Considering man’s usefulness ebbing at an exponential rate due to our technological advances, when do you think man will be a factor of "planned obsolescence"? Well, at least those that "don’t rate" anyway. What are we going to do then? Who rates and who doesn’t rate?
What do you think?

William

[Pangloss]

If "thinking about the long haul" includes trying to grasp an "eternal existence", then that does seem like quite a chore.

Thinking about day-to-day stuff is what allows most people to remain relatively sane and happy...

Originally Posted by Voltaire

This new adventure engaged them more deeply than ever in philosophical disputations.
In the neighborhood lived a famous dervish who passed for the best philosopher in Turkey; they went to consult him: Pangloss, who was their spokesman, addressed him thus:
"Master, we come to entreat you to tell us why so strange an animal as man has been formed?"
"Why do you trouble your head about it?" said the dervish; "is it any business of yours?"
"But, Reverend Father," said Candide, "there is a horrible deal of evil on the earth."
"What signifies it," said the dervish, "whether there is evil or good? When His Highness sends a ship to Egypt does he trouble his head whether the rats in the vessel are at their ease or not?"
"What must then be done?" said Pangloss.
"Be silent," answered the dervish.
"I flattered myself," replied Pangloss, "to have reasoned a little with you on the causes and effects, on the best of possible worlds, the origin of evil, the nature of the soul, and a pre-established harmony."
At these words the dervish shut the door in their faces.

[William]

Originally Posted by Pangloss

If "thinking about the long haul" includes trying to grasp an "eternal existence", then that does seem like quite a chore.

Thinking about day-to-day stuff is what allows most people to remain relatively sane and happy...

Good response my friend,

I used to think it quite a chore, but have found it not to be. Lonely, yes, but not a chore. I agree to a certain extent such thought is not a concern of most as they, as you say, are grateful to be able to get from one day to the next, yet I may be at odd's with you as to their "sanity and happiness". I was just wondering just how isolated I am in my understanding of how critical our existence is becoming. Even if the long hall only extends to the next generation, I feel we still are not devoting the thought we need to insure our children's welfare.

I have always known we are at our best when times are worst, but we are really treading on thin ice and when it comes to "worse", I don't think we have a clue of how bad it can really get. Anyway, if there is critical thought, where do you think it is coming from and what is that motivation to serves as a catalyst for it?

William

[Holiday20310401]

Christians are very concerned with eternal existence, otherwise they'd not consider eternal death to be a type of death. And they do not support critical thought because the truth MUST be the bible. And biblical knowledge is the ultimate truth and only true truth to true christians.

So no, people concerned with eternal existence do not have the crucial piece of their potential. Critical thinking! They are so lost in an emotional and impure spiritual state that the "grit" required for critical thought is completely abandoned and probably not possible without a huge logical realization for a rational path.

Well I certainly enjoyed ranting off like that, let off a bit of steam. Sorry.

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

So no, people concerned with eternal existence do not have the crucial piece of their potential. Critical thinking! They are so lost in an emotional and impure spiritual state that the "grit" required for critical thought is completely abandoned and probably not possible without a huge logical realization for a rational path.

I think it has less to do with a lack of the ability for Critical Thinking, and more to do with an Ego that just can't let go of the idea of Self. The idea of "No more Me" is pretty unpalatable for most . . .

But perhaps this is what you meant by "impure spiritual state"?

[Pangloss]

Originally Posted by William

I was just wondering just how isolated I am in my understanding of how critical our existence is becoming. Even if the long hall only extends to the next generation, I feel we still are not devoting the thought we need to insure our children's welfare.

I have always known we are at our best when times are worst, but we are really treading on thin ice and when it comes to "worse", I don't think we have a clue of how bad it can really get. Anyway, if there is critical thought, where do you think it is coming from and what is that motivation to serves as a catalyst for it?

People mostly appear to me as unashamed hedonists pursuing their own interests, without any regard for the expense incurred upon others in the process. This is how people appear, because unfortunately in our society, it is the lifestyle we are taught to pursue; it is glorified by the one source of information where the masses seek their "truth" -- mass media.

I don't like to say I have faith in a lot of things, but it is my faith that most people secretly yearn for a life that is greater than the hedonistic pursuit of self-interests. When we can learn to stop lumping people into "groups" and drawing little boxes around these groups, and giving these groups names, and speaking of these group names as being something different than what we ourselves are--that is, we are all human--then progress will come. I don't say that I am a Christian, but the philosophy of the "golden rule", "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is one that everybody should live by. When we learn to view all other people as members of the same big family--by doing to them as we would like done to us-- we will have a chance.

Critical thought is going on everywhere, but I can't think of any one authoritative source where its message is originating from at present. Any time people engage in unprejudiced discussions with the intent of finding answers (not the intent to simply argue), then there is good critical thought. I think before you consider what can be used to motivate people towards critical thought, you first have to consider that many people in this world simply can not engage in real critical thought (or it is very difficult). Many people around this world live in war zones, have to work 12+ hours a day to survive, or live in societies where critical thinking is punished or abhorred (I fear that ours has already taken the path of abhorring critical thought). Surely all people are capable of critical thought, but these environments make the practice impractical and perhaps irresponsible in some situations.

Education can inspire real critical thought, as well as inspire the desire for critical thought. Unfortunately, many people in the world aren't able to educate themselves: their living conditions might require excessive laboring instead. their society might engage in censorship. The system of education we have in the West is probably better than most, but it can certainly be improved. Students are told to "get an education" in order to achieve lucrative employment (buying into the earlier mentioned desire to spend life pursuing their own interests and nothing more), and they are told to "get good grades" in the process (but are commonly not told to seek knowledge). Many people cheat along the way, or cruise through their education with no real desire to learn. Education should teach people to love wisdom (like the philosopher), it should not primarily aim to teach people how or why to think, or what specifically they should be thinking about. Most truly "educated" people I have encountered did not get to that position by earning a couple of ivy league degrees and graduating magna cum laude; They sought out knowledge for its own sake, because they could not bear to do otherwise.

[William]

Originally Posted by Pangloss

People mostly appear to me as unashamed hedonists pursuing their own interests, without any regard for the expense incurred upon others in the process. This is how people appear, because unfortunately in our society, it is the lifestyle we are taught to pursue; it is glorified by the one source of information where the masses seek their "truth" -- mass media.

I don't like to say I have faith in a lot of things, but it is my faith that most people secretly yearn for a life that is greater than the hedonistic pursuit of self-interests. When we can learn to stop lumping people into "groups" and drawing little boxes around these groups, and giving these groups names, and speaking of these group names as being something different than what we ourselves are--that is, we are all human--then progress will come. I don't say that I am a Christian, but the philosophy of the "golden rule", "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is one that everybody should live by. When we learn to view all other people as members of the same big family--by doing to them as we would like done to us-- we will have a chance.

Critical thought is going on everywhere, but I can't think of any one authoritative source where its message is originating from at present. Any time people engage in unprejudiced discussions with the intent of finding answers (not the intent to simply argue), then there is good critical thought. I think before you consider what can be used to motivate people towards critical thought, you first have to consider that many people in this world simply can not engage in real critical thought (or it is very difficult). Many people around this world live in war zones, have to work 12+ hours a day to survive, or live in societies where critical thinking is punished or abhorred (I fear that ours has already taken the path of abhorring critical thought). Surely all people are capable of critical thought, but these environments make the practice impractical and perhaps irresponsible in some situations.

Education can inspire real critical thought, as well as inspire the desire for critical thought. Unfortunately, many people in the world aren't able to educate themselves: their living conditions might require excessive laboring instead. their society might engage in censorship. The system of education we have in the West is probably better than most, but it can certainly be improved. Students are told to "get an education" in order to achieve lucrative employment (buying into the earlier mentioned desire to spend life pursuing their own interests and nothing more), and they are told to "get good grades" in the process (but are commonly not told to seek knowledge). Many people cheat along the way, or cruise through their education with no real desire to learn. Education should teach people to love wisdom (like the philosopher), it should not primarily aim to teach people how or why to think, or what specifically they should be thinking about. Most truly "educated" people I have encountered did not get to that position by earning a couple of ivy league degrees and graduating magna cum laude; They sought out knowledge for its own sake, because they could not bear to do otherwise.

Thank you pangloss, you have nailed a lot of the problem, and brilliantly so. It was my hope when I began my "adventure" into philosophy via these forums, to find like minds who think as critically as I. As much as I would like to say this adventure was a rewarding one, I can’t. Not being a learned scholar myself, I was not sure exactly what I was looking for. Little did I know the vast gap that exists between "everyday Joe’s" like myself and those gifted people with a "thirst for knowledge" and their ability to "learn". I just assumed "critical thinking" would be a natural occurrence emanating from these minds. I was wrong. Being an unlearned neophyte, academically speaking, I was again assuming philosophy would be "word’s of the wise". Again I was wrong. Wisdom has nothing to do with philosophy. So you see it has been an eye opening experience in that I have come to understand philosophy is nothing more than one’s expertise at identifying the problems with little effort toward’s the solutions to those problems. You have brilliantly identified why those problems exist.
IMHO, there is a big difference in seeking answers and implementing solutions. Acquiescing in one’s ability to rationalize "reason" for the sad state of affairs we find ourselves in accomplishes nothing, which brings me to the question I would like to ask you. How do we go from understanding to solving? So many of these "beautiful minds", as you have said, have been programmed to learn so they can survive in the status quo we have created as they so easily "learn" what they "spoon fed". So many, as is evident even on these forums, are at odd’s with all they have learned as it truly "make’s no sense" as it applies to the everyday effort of living. Forgive me, but "..do we exist"? My God, what kind of a question is that? Not meaning to disparage philosophy, but let's face it, it has been around for a "few" years and as hard as I try, I can't see what good it had done except to proclaim "God is Dead" and "I think, therefore I am". God pity the poor soul that thinks he's a vampire. Ha.


Perhaps my understanding and critical thinking is novel in the philosophical realm and I can only hope to inspire these so gifted minds to seek alternatives to the way the "status quo" functions that would eliminate the inequity that exists in the world. To devise a compensation and rewards program that is not based on rarity that would allow all people to enjoy life based on their knowledge of it eliminating lack. I think we will come to find how little mankind needs to be truly happy once we begin to place value on the human being rather than those rare materialistic baubles that we stupidly use to govern the worth of an individual.


How nice it would be for the gifted among us to establish a forum worldwide to focus on what needs to be done to ensure the least amount of sacrifice as we learn what it truly valuable and that is life itself and the freedom to live it unfettered by the dictates of others. We are so very adept at identifying the problems, but are at a loss as to implementing solutions to those problems unless we are force to and that is usually due to a catastrophic event the forces us to think as one. How so very sad, for I feel the next event, we may not overcome. Thanks for your response. You nailed it. Now what can we do about it?

William

[Pangloss]

Originally Posted by William

It was my hope when I began my "adventure" into philosophy via these forums, to find like minds who think as critically as I. As much as I would like to say this adventure was a rewarding one, I can’t. Not being a learned scholar myself, I was not sure exactly what I was looking for. Little did I know the vast gap that exists between "everyday Joe’s" like myself and those gifted people with a "thirst for knowledge" and their ability to "learn". I just assumed "critical thinking" would be a natural occurrence emanating from these minds. I was wrong. Being an unlearned neophyte, academically speaking, I was again assuming philosophy would be "word’s of the wise". Again I was wrong. Wisdom has nothing to do with philosophy. So you see it has been an eye opening experience in that I have come to understand philosophy is nothing more than one’s expertise at identifying the problems with little effort toward’s the solutions to those problems.

Hi William...I think that everybody is an 'average Joe' underneath it all, even those driving around in their BMW and wearing $1000 suits; even those who stumble upon great wisdom, and who might appear to others as being a little bit "slow" in the head. Like I said, everybody is the same deep down, and you seem to agree here. Sometimes academics can really inspire critical thinking, and sometimes it is natural. Sometimes people will never get it, not because they aren't capable, but because their lower faculties have convinced them that nothing good can come from it. I have encountered varying degrees of wisdom in all people-- many times it is the "common folk" who truly can think more critically because, by virtue of taking the simpler path in life, he is less distracted by the "shadows on the wall", and can focus more of his energy on the "source".

IMHO, there is a big difference in seeking answers and implementing solutions. Acquiescing in one’s ability to rationalize "reason" for the sad state of affairs we find ourselves in accomplishes nothing, which brings me to the question I would like to ask you. How do we go from understanding to solving? So many of these "beautiful minds", as you have said, have been programmed to learn so they can survive in the status quo we have created as they so easily "learn" what they "spoon fed". So many, as is evident even on these forums, are at odd’s with all they have learned as it truly "make’s no sense" as it applies to the everyday effort of living. Forgive me, but "..do we exist"? My God, what kind of a question is that? Not meaning to disparage philosophy, but let's face it, it has been around for a "few" years and as hard as I try, I can't see what good it had done except to proclaim "God is Dead" and "I think, therefore I am". God pity the poor soul that thinks he's a vampire. Ha.

It is hard to find some ultimate "solution" to problems that are encountered in this world, and people have been writing of this for as long as they could write. So far, nothing has changed. People still commit senseless crimes, and they are still driven by the desire to satisfy their own interests at the expense of others. The reason it seems like it is getting worse is not that people are becoming worse themselves-- but technology and the global economy allow for more and more resources and energy to be used towards pursuing violent and self-serving ends. The most evil early human dictator in the world 100,000 years ago might have been able to wipe out a small village in Africa and collect a few cool artifacts and good meals for himself in pursuing his devious ways. Now we have leaders who could use nuclear technology to destroy all life as we know it with a simple command, and we have hundreds of millions of children working in large factories around the world, churning out cheap crap for the wealthy to buy. We have rich people flying around in their own jets and frivolously spending tens of thousands of dollars a day on junk-- money which translates into tens of thousands of labor hours for somebody else around the world to produce that junk.

Yes, I have been avoiding your question! This is because I don't have the answer, and I don't think anyone else does. But you made a distinction between "understanding" and "solving", and perhaps you might have leapt before looking here. I think that "understanding" really is "solving". Someone who truly does "understand" (Plato called it "the good", hindus call it "dharma"), will inevitably be freed from their lower desires for self-interest (as free as you can get while maintaining a happy existence), and will use the power of reason to go about his life. He will not engage in grouping people, and thus will not judge, or decide that it is acceptable for him to take advantage of others to further his own interests. He will "treat others as he would like to be treated", and the goodness and virtue of his actions will inspire others to the path of "understanding". This power of "understanding" can spread, just like the power of selfishness, and its influence can in fact be the solution, as far as I see it. I don't know when or if this will ever happen, but I do think that "understanding" truly is, and will be, "the solution". Any other solution without first having the understanding would have to be forced upon people, and that would go against what we would want to achieve. Thus, understanding is, at the very least, prerequisite for the solution.

Perhaps my understanding and critical thinking is novel in the philosophical realm and I can only hope to inspire these so gifted minds to seek alternatives to the way the "status quo" functions that would eliminate the inequity that exists in the world. To devise a compensation and rewards program that is not based on rarity that would allow all people to enjoy life based on their knowledge of it eliminating lack. I think we will come to find how little mankind needs to be truly happy once we begin to place value on the human being rather than those rare materialistic baubles that we stupidly use to govern the worth of an individual.

Yes. With understanding, people will no longer value the material that they now so vehemently seek. To devise an economic system that would support this understanding is probably beyond my ability (or it would take a long time for me to attempt to reason something like this out), but first we must reach understanding. This is, as I said above, first possible by the effects of those people of understanding spreading the joy and truth that is "loving your neighbor" to others. Formal education, I still think, can also help. This would be best if it mainly focuses on:

a) Making it a goal to have students think critically and rationally; to use reason and logic to consider the merit of ideas and actions. To distinguish truth from opinion.

b) Communication. What good is thinking beautifully if you cannot communicate this with others? Speech, writing, and all of the arts in general are all forms of communication, which should be taught and encouraged.

How nice it would be for the gifted among us to establish a forum worldwide to focus on what needs to be done to ensure the least amount of sacrifice as we learn what it truly valuable and that is life itself and the freedom to live it unfettered by the dictates of others. We are so very adept at identifying the problems, but are at a loss as to implementing solutions to those problems unless we are force to and that is usually due to a catastrophic event the forces us to think as one. How so very sad, for I feel the next event, we may not overcome.

William, I think that you are one of the "gifted among us", in that your thinking is of the divine way; you, and others like you, genuinely would like others to share in your knowledge of the truth in unity which exists. This can bring joy if others realize the message, or pain if it is rejected. Here is one reason it seems that we build up the ego with material goods and desires-- it is to protect the true divine self which cannot happily exist in a world where it is rejected and beaten down. We then try to forget it exists, and we rely upon the ego to tell us that we are better than others. This is safe. It is difficult and dangerous to be genuine; sometimes it may be accepted by those with understanding, or inspire understanding in others. Other times, it leaves you vulnerable and open to attack. The "gifted" I think is more like a state of being to describe those who realize the supremacy of an "examined life" where "the good" is sought first of all. But everyone has the capacity to reach this "gifted" state.

I agree that a catastrophic event may be the trigger that could bring about this change. The material illusion now is so real that it will never go away, and will probably continue its exponential growth and hunger until it is knocked off course by some type of divine intervention. People have been coming up with doomsday scenarios for years, where those remaining would reassess their values and create peace and prosperity for the future of humanity. This doesn't sound realistic or likely to happen, but you never know.

If you could think of some person who is individually on the "bad path" of hurting others and only serving his lower desires, then think of what would be necessary for him to change. A big slap in the face, and a brush with death and simultaneous forced examination of his life "flashing before his eyes", might show him the errors of his ways. Now extrapolate this to the global level...what slap in the face, brush with death, and forced examination of our society would need to take place?

As to people solving the problems, I think there are those out there who are working on it. Of course everyone loves to bash religion on this forum, but whether or not you agree with the doctrine being preached in a church, you have to admit that churches (or their members) mostly perform great positive and charitable works in society. Many non-profit organizations are good, but many are scams. Many people make the world a better place simply by giving someone a ride, helping to move furniture, comforting a friend, or with one of many other kind acts which are performed every day around us that go by unnoticed. These things are never sensationalized in the media, because the "bad stuff" is what interests the media of entertainment that is against truth. So if you watch the news every day and never really get out into the world, you might begin to think that the world is really much worse than it is.

[sarek]

Originally Posted by William

Thank you pangloss, you have nailed a lot of the problem, and brilliantly so. It was my hope when I began my "adventure" into philosophy via these forums, to find like minds who think as critically as I. As much as I would like to say this adventure was a rewarding one, I can’t. Not being a learned scholar myself, I was not sure exactly what I was looking for. Little did I know the vast gap that exists between "everyday Joe’s" like myself and those gifted people with a "thirst for knowledge" and their ability to "learn". I just assumed "critical thinking" would be a natural occurrence emanating from these minds. I was wrong. Being an unlearned neophyte, academically speaking, I was again assuming philosophy would be "word’s of the wise". Again I was wrong. Wisdom has nothing to do with philosophy. So you see it has been an eye opening experience in that I have come to understand philosophy is nothing more than one’s expertise at identifying the problems with little effort toward’s the solutions to those problems. You have brilliantly identified why those problems exist.
IMHO, there is a big difference in seeking answers and implementing solutions. Acquiescing in one’s ability to rationalize "reason" for the sad state of affairs we find ourselves in accomplishes nothing, which brings me to the question I would like to ask you. How do we go from understanding to solving? So many of these "beautiful minds", as you have said, have been programmed to learn so they can survive in the status quo we have created as they so easily "learn" what they "spoon fed". So many, as is evident even on these forums, are at odd’s with all they have learned as it truly "make’s no sense" as it applies to the everyday effort of living. Forgive me, but "..do we exist"? My God, what kind of a question is that? Not meaning to disparage philosophy, but let's face it, it has been around for a "few" years and as hard as I try, I can't see what good it had done except to proclaim "God is Dead" and "I think, therefore I am". God pity the poor soul that thinks he's a vampire. Ha.


Perhaps my understanding and critical thinking is novel in the philosophical realm and I can only hope to inspire these so gifted minds to seek alternatives to the way the "status quo" functions that would eliminate the inequity that exists in the world. To devise a compensation and rewards program that is not based on rarity that would allow all people to enjoy life based on their knowledge of it eliminating lack. I think we will come to find how little mankind needs to be truly happy once we begin to place value on the human being rather than those rare materialistic baubles that we stupidly use to govern the worth of an individual.


How nice it would be for the gifted among us to establish a forum worldwide to focus on what needs to be done to ensure the least amount of sacrifice as we learn what it truly valuable and that is life itself and the freedom to live it unfettered by the dictates of others. We are so very adept at identifying the problems, but are at a loss as to implementing solutions to those problems unless we are force to and that is usually due to a catastrophic event the forces us to think as one. How so very sad, for I feel the next event, we may not overcome. Thanks for your response. You nailed it. Now what can we do about it?

William

I could not possibly agree more. I too feel this urge to get up and do something: but what? While I have thought long and hard about these matters, it has only been a short while ago that I have become active on the appropriate fora to try and begin giving something of a contribution while at the same time continuing to learn.

I can extrapolate the rate of current events(economically, ecologically, socially, technologically) and see them in the light of the many flaws of human nature and find them incompatible. The human animal is simply not suited to the technological world we have created for ourselves.

It will take a Herculean effort to mend this state of affairs. Do not underestimate to urgency of the situation. If mankind does not solve its most critical problems within the coming century those problems will solve us.
Technology is not going to help us, every solution will turn out to lead to a new bigger problem. No, it is humanity itself that will have to fix things.

I don't read these things in the Bible or in Mayan inscriptions nor have I read it in the works of Nostradamus of the prophecies of Cayce. All those sources and many other like them are at best just for corroboration. But it is reality we have to deal with.

No, instead it is the application of logic and the 'connecting of dots' from a great many different scientific, philosophical and religious angles that led me to these conclusions. They frighten me. They should frighten everyone.

So, what are we to do? I say the first thing to do is to wake up.

We are all thinkers here on this forum. We have the responsibilities that come with that territory.
Just like rulers have to rule responsibly and public figures have to be careful about what example to set for their audiences, so thinkers owe it to the world to put that grey matter to work.

Everyone has to ask himself: If not me, then who? When the accounting comes, what have I done with the talents given to me?

[Khethil]

Excellent exchange here, if I may say so, and some very-nicely articulated views underpinning some sincerely-felt desires. If I may toss in a couple of thoughts...

I've wrestled much with "how are we gonna change this?"-type questions. In retrospect, I've been lucky in this way: I've had the privilege of fathering two young men who are now wandering about the planet; hopefully spreading about some of the joy we gave them as young'ins. I've also had the good fortune of being in positions of leadership in the military where I was able to help "steer" those who questioned into directions I thought best. Ultimately; however, I think the only true thing we can do is be an Advocate for Positive Change (starting, of course, with the man in the mirror).

It is a bit daunting though, isn't it?; this self-destructive component of human nature. At the risk of waxing an old cliche', I'd simply add: Keep the Faith!

Thanks