How does anyone know whats right(Aka:what is the good)

[BrightNoon]

I am so far into nihilism I can't even remember when I beleived something, in the ultimate sense of the word. Of course, I expect to be alive in the morning, I expect the sun to rise, etc. Essentially, the end of reason is, not suprisingly, unreason. Do that which you do, judge in some way or not, and then do it some more or do something else, quite often for reasons you cannot even fathom. Nihilism should not breed futility; it should make one realize that nothing is truly futile, because there is no ultimate purpose. Futility is only possible when there is a purpose: e.g. living without praying is futile if you believe in heaven.

To live without ultimate reasons, purposes, or values, which you beleive are 'right' is ultimate freedom; you are like an actor upon the stage; the purpose, so to speak, of your existance is in that existance itself, not something else, which may or may not actually exist.

[ogden]

Originally Posted by Zetetic11235

How does one determine what is right(what is the good)?

Your use of the word "determine" points to the fact that "good" is a subjective judgment.

Subjective judgments seam limitless; bounded only by the number of individuals and the objects they place value on.

It is important to remember that this thread is not about what is good, but how one makes that determination. The mechanics of "how" these judgments are made has been well coverd in this post and in the forums previous, and lengthy, morality discusions.

My personal opinion is that boagie is correct when he says that value judgments stem from self presrvation motives. I also think that some of these judgments stem from our biology. I mean asthetics, semitry, and order are in themselves value judgments that are rooted in our physiology. As complex social creatures we humans, not suprisingly, develop complex value systems that can be hard to analyze. Systems that grow as we grow and morph with ever changing conditions. Making value judgments is intrinsic with being human and it is always done using a subject object relationsip determination, nomater how complex.

[Fido]

Originally Posted by Pancho the Great

Paulhanke,
boy are you right about the size of the problem and you certainly are right about starting to chip away at the problem, and I will do what ever is in my power starting with voting, and playing shows, trying to educate the dumb by printed text around the college...and then getting the hell out of here. But still where is the freedom from humanity, isn't there enough lack of freedom just with nature alone? Like I'm not free from being human, or gravity, or having to rely on oxygen. And then still enter society where your freedoms are still suppressed further, replaced with a false sense of freedom so that it is not so evident. But still we left the question about good and evil to discuss freedom...so about the good and the bad?

The chains you cannot hope to break soon grow unnoticed, and all you do is what can be done. To me, what you are referring to is a-morality, or better, demoralization. If you see that you are miserable, and everyone you know is miserable, but effecting a change means bringing everyone along, then it gets too big a mountain to climb, another unbreakable chain that people bow down and accept. I don't accept it, but only because I realize how easily intelligent people change with a little light to show the way. You don't have to change everyone to have a change. You only have to change yourself. Not to accept, mind you, but to not accept, to not believe, to be disenthralled, and alive. And still do as you can.

[Pancho the Great]

Originally Posted by Fido

You don't have to change everyone to have a change. You only have to change yourself.

Fido,
Thank you, you give me a glimmer of hope, and you speak the truth. The only thing is its hard to be yourself when being yourself is breaking the law, you will always be encountered with resistance, my life is an uphill battle. Like for example here in my hometown of El Paso the city is trying to extend a street right through Tigua Indian land, we all know overtime the Indians have almost been stripped of everything, and now they still want to take more from them...This is where I choose not to just change me, if you have the strength you must stand. There may not be a right and wrong in my eyes but some things still disgust me. They wont take that land without a fight from me, they will be encountered with protests, petitions, and a punk show right on the construction site. But it will only go so far before me and my band are arrested because you need permision to protest and we will never get it legally from city hall. So are you suggesting I run away and forget about the Indians or maybe you can give me some ideas on how we could win.

To live without ultimate reasons, purposes, or values, which you beleive are 'right' is ultimate freedom; you are like an actor upon the stage; the purpose, so to speak, of your existance is in that existance itself, not something else, which may or may not actually exist.

BrightNoon explains it so much better than me Paulhanke, there is no right and wrong or purpose beyond existence so why do I get punished, oh yeah cuz no people that make the laws are Nihilist. You also sound rather cynic/stoic BrightNoon I like that. Oh and I wasn't complaining about my lack of freedom in nature, merely pointing it out, what I was complaining about was my lack of freedom in society, Paulhanke. The truth of the matter is will I not get arrested for exercising my "freedom"? It doesn't matter how free you call yourself. Like the good old band Leftover Crack says once more "You don't know your on a leash if you sit by the peg all day." And I love to run with my leash and choke my self as the leash tightens throwing me back reminding me it's not easy being free. And are you free if you have to suffer consequenses from another being just like you and I, but instead they have values and you don't, yet you must pay for their values. I look forward to your answer BrightNoon.

[iconoclast]

To live, to know, to live...

[Zetherin]

Justin, you noted that nature teaches us what is "good" and "bad"? How exactly does it do this?

From my logic, it appears that nature teaches us the exact opposite: that there is no good and bad - it is constructed and applied by us. There is no objective scale here; it is relative to us humans, to each observer. It is completely subjective and only even subjective because we have this emotional consciousness with which to view our individual reality. One man's bad may be another man's good, and a stone sure as hell can't tell the difference. That storm that just killed 200 people may be bad to me because I just lost my mother, but it's neither to the universe.

I'd also like you to expound on love, because as far as I can tell, I don't see it everywhere in nature. Yes, I would consider love good, as it leads to coexistence (for us, and debatably some other creatures), however, I wouldn't say there is any objectivity to this. It is a feeling after all, and it's not required for biological existence. However, as emotional creatures it may be a key in our particular case, lest our temple fall.

What is good, in my opinion? Something that leads to humanity's coexistence. Is that ambiguous? Absolutely, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

"Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication"
-Tool