freedom

[paisleypea]

well i suck at categorizing thing and i wasn't sure where to put this, so i hope its ok that i put it here.

i have been thinking lately about freedom and what it really means and what its value is lately because i get into a lot of arguements with a libertarian friend of mine alot about it, but beyond political freedom what is freedom to you guys?

i went from the generic notion of freedom meaning being able to do what you want, but like socrates points out in Gorgias, it doesn't really mean much if you don't know whats best for you. so i guess in brief, i've modified my views to say that perhaps freedom is not about power and choice so much as about knowledge and understanding. and if you believe in God, i would extend this to say that freedom is being closer to God in the sense of understanding because the more you know of the supreme will of God the more you will know what is best which means in theory you would have more freedom.
does this make sense? tell me what you guys think. i'd like to refine my thoughts on the matter.

[nameless]

Originally Posted by paisleypea

what is freedom to you guys?

It is a 'belief', a 'feeling', a fantasy notion.
There is no 'freedom' other than that.
The 'believers' kill and commit atrocity and die for their 'beliefs'.
Sad.
It is just and egoic fantasy.
No 'free-will', no 'choice', no 'freedom' to 'do' anything...

[paisleypea]

so you say there is no freedom because you believe in predeterminism?

[nameless]

Originally Posted by paisleypea

so you say there is no freedom because you believe in predeterminism?

Not at all.
First, 'predeterminism' is still a linear perspective, and 'Reality' (metaphysical capitol 'R') doesn't work like that.

First, I do not 'believe' in anything.

'Freedom' implies a state of 'action', 'free' to do your 'free-will'. 'Free' to accomplish. To 'change' what Is. Now theres some judgemental egoic crap for you; the "'present moment' is insufficient," says I, "so I'm going to change it into something that I, in all my wisdom, feel would be 'better!)
What Is never changes. What Is is always what Is All moments of all existence are always Is. Nothing 'moves', nothing 'changes'. Every 'moment' (Planck) is a complete and quantumly discrete universe, differing from other moments.
To fully define yourself, at any moment, you would have to include the entire universe (of the moment). Think butterfly effect. The universe is One. You are not different from the universe that you perceive each moment. For you to 'change' anything would mean that (accepting a fantasy structure of existence) you would have to somehow alter the entire universe in accord with your 'free-will'. See how vain and impossible that would be? You couldn't 'do' anything without 'doing' everything. Nope, just ego thinks that it has that power.
If nothing moves, and there is nothing to move (outside the movie playing in your mind), 'freedom' becomes an absurdity for the reasons mentioned. We 'do' nothing but observe what we 'see'.
We are no more 'free' than a rock, or an hour-glass...
There is the 'feeling' though... and it is quite the pleasant and powerful ego wanker! But, don't 'believe' it to be 'Reality/Truth'!

[Crazeddemon]

Originally Posted by nameless

Not at all.
First, 'predeterminism' is still a linear perspective, and 'Reality' (metaphysical capitol 'R') doesn't work like that.

First, I do not 'believe' in anything.

'Freedom' implies a state of 'action', 'free' to do your 'free-will'.

Freedom, if it were a form of energy, would not be kinetic, it would be potential energy. For example an animal is free it may run around or it could just stare into the woods. It's the freedom that is causing the action, the freedom is just opening the door for actions to be caused.

You 'believe' science? or is that a know question (i obviously know it is)? If you can't see it with a microscope it doesn't exist? Is that your stance? But all of that is based off of measurements.....measurements that we determined. All we 'know' is just an observation and if you can observe freedom then by your standards it also exists and is therefore REAL whether you 'believe' in it or not.

_______________________________________

Anyway, ON TOPIC, Freedom opens the possibility for a person to do anything they wish as long as they can physically accomplish it. I do not understand the concept of relinquishing power over my life to a source that does not have my best interests at the top of their list regardless of how little actual power i have over it.

[de_budding]

Think butterfly effect. The universe is One. You are not different from the universe that you perceive each moment. For you to 'change' anything would mean that (accepting a fantasy structure of existence) you would have to somehow alter the entire universe in accord with your 'free-will'.

Sounds like a wonderful form of 'universal displacement' where free-will is impossible because of the implications and knock-on effects of actions because of the butterfly effect/universe-is-one idea. If I was really free to chose an action I would displace actuality and upset it further down the line in a big way. >.> he he

Any ways in response to the original post, I think we think freedom is dependent on choice and the expansion of potentiality. That's what we humans like... to keep one foot on the boat, always have a way out.

Dan.