The Will to Purpose

[Mephistopheles]

The will to provide meaning is such an integral aspect of most philosophies, ideologies, religions, and societal rules in general; so strong that we, on one hand, adhere to the scientific methodology of evidence supporting conjecture, while at the same time, some of us worship gods and behave, as well as espouse, thoughts which can only be considered antithetical to rational thought. And yet billions don't seem to realize, or care, that they are committing such a blatant, and constant act of doublethink every single day of their lives. Perhaps faith does indeed require a leap; a leap of what, though? How is faith mentally healthy?

It's been generally assumed, by many psychologists and philosophers, although not fully, that the underlying reason for the formation of laws, order, society, dogmatic institutions, is simply an extension of the human will to control, to dominate, or to submit. That we graduate towards the formation of an organized society based upon a central command structure, and generally, a set of laws, to provide order; and that order, in itself, is a means of control by one party, over the rest of the populace.

However, this seems to me, to be not the only case, and not the only reason. The will to power, so called, is not enough to explain why the human existence orders itself into functional groups. On the unconscious level, the instinctual, animalistic level, we are no different from animals. We kill each other (we mostly stopped the habit of eating each other), we steal from each other, we conquer each other, and we cooperate in a social heirarchy. Animals, the ones currently not shown to exhibit the ability of complex thought compared to our own, if they indeed do not possess complex thought processes, do not ask themselves why they exist, do not create institutions providing an emotional comfort by claiming to know the secrets of the universe. Humans are more complex than lower animals, and we are capable of asking ourselves questions. We are capable of philosophizing, and of posing myriads of question concerning reason, of everything in general.

The fact we are capable of complex thought, and of consciously ordering our societies, seems to indicate more than just the will to power at work here. The will to [create] meaning is, in this aspect, more powerful than the aspect of power, because power does not describe the reasons inherent, nor the necessity of that power, or the continuation, or the dissolution thereof. If the will to create purpose in our lives and justify everything we do was not prime, we never would have organized religions or institutions or politics or philosophical ideologies because none of it would have benefited or mattered to the prevailing human condition. But, that wasn't our fate. The human condition, at this point in time, and for thousands of years past, and perhaps until the ending of the human race, necessitates reasoning, purpose, of our lives, and the societies we serve.
Some people do not actively require an outlet for this drive to create purpose. There are many who are content with their lives and do not worship idols or attend mass gatherings or read contradictory, archaic writings. So, is it just that those people, the ones who need a reason in order to be content, are simply weaker people? Not really. Though, the fact that if someone were to be stripped of their religion if, somehow, that religion could be proven wrong, would be devastating to the human psyche, and has ended, for certain individuals, in self-inflicted pains, or worse. This indicates that the majority of human society requires a validating purpose to their lives. The consequences of lack of purpose would be greatly catastrophic, at the least.

The universe needs not to have a divine "purpose" for someone to have a will to meaning and purpose. The majority of our world believes in a divine purpose, or some form of divine ideology. Those who have chosen to follow a more materialistic and rationalist view have, inherently, no such beliefs in the nature of the universe outside of scientific fact. Much of the history of our world has been a clash between humanism and science against religion and dogmatics. We find such a polarization of ultimate belief from this stratification of thought; to ensure the survival of our comfort zone as per the mode of thought we find most acceptable, we seek refuge in the extremes.

For animals, the will to power is what orders their societies. For humans, not just the will to power, but, even more so, the will to purpose is what creates stability for human society. Whether political or religious in nature, or any other form which predominates, the will to purpose is stronger than the will to power; power simply exists, purpose necessitates that power. And that is how the human condition is.

I find no underlying purpose or reason for the existence of our universe. I find nothing to necessitate a belief in any sort of divinity or ultimate purpose and will. Sometimes, I honestly wonder why I continue living. I believe that once my body dies, the absence of a soul will mean the death of the person typing these words. I know that death is the common denominator of this universe, and I accept that. I'm simply afraid of dying, and I'm not too keen on experiencing it.

We form governments, we create nations, we elect or experience coup d'etats and the rise of dictators and despots and kings alike. We go to school to educate ourselves so that we can get a job when we are older. Most of us will find a mate and most of us will pass on a physical legacy. Which is how I know I'm a pretty extreme nihilist when I think of all these things, and know that there's no point. Every system fails, and this doesn't exempt nations and governments, or even a species. Nature should be respected because it sure as hell doesn't respect you. Yet, I still live, and I still participate when I feel like participating for no real reason. Telling myself I want to experience life would be a self-delusion; life entails pain and suffering and heartache and then, slow death. Saying that I want to live just to live is purposeless. In the end, I realize I don't even know what my motivations for staying alive are.

If there is a meaning to the universe, what good will it do for any of us? We'll all still exist as a weak and fragile emotional human being subject to all the pains and miseries that life brings to us; and I think we all realize, deep down inside, there's more pain and suffering than pleasure and happiness in this world. We will still get a broken heart, we will still suffer broken bones, cuts, scrapes, accidents, and **** will be flung at us just as much as before. Life will still be life, and then you'll die, and nothing will matter. Nothing matters. Not even our own lives. Why would we matter if we simply and utterly die? The mind is such a fragile thing, and when it ends, it can never come back.

I scoff at people who say that our soul/consciousness is immutable. Those who have suffered brain damage have shown personality changes on such a magnitude as to be almost a new person. The original person is dead. A new one emerges from the ego: new, but yet, the same. In some cases, most memory of the original personality is retained; in some cases, not. And then we think about the effects of prolonged torture and brainwashing, most notably the concept of a Room 101, and we really begin to understand that there's nothing immortal or "holy" about the human being.

[boagie]

Mephistopheles,

"I am not afraid of dying, I just do not want to be there when it happens." Woody Allen

You have outlined the human conditon pretty well I would say, King Lear would be proud. Schopenhauer once said, "Life is something which should never have been." The late Joseph Campbell said of this, that he thought it an immature stance. So, it was not your intension to be here, and yet, here are, you might as well put your will behind it and play the best game you can, or as Nietzsche said, "Life requires a sacred yes." "Look to long into the abyss and the abyss will look into you." It is a mistake I believe to take death personally. As I heard it expressed once, it is a matter of what you choose to identify with, take a great chandelier with its many bulbs, a bulb burns out, the caretaker comes and replaces said bulb, if we were identifying with the bulb we would feel like mourning, if however you identitfied with the light of the chandelier, the light is relatively immortal. What is it you imagine dies at the event of your death, are you the light or are you a bulb. I could get off on a tangent about just what personal idenity really is but perhaps in another thread.

Again Mephistopheles, Welcome, we are most pleased to have you with us!

[de_budding]

Wow, that is a very comprehensive description of how a spade really is a spade, thank you . But this train of thought leads me to question the likely hood that 'I' could come into existence... the phrase that comes to mind when I truly consider my situation compared to the universe is... WTF! A completely sublime experience.

Never the less you have described how I feel about my life, searches for meaning and my efforts to lead a 'good' and satisfying life. And I think my conclusion is reflected in how I see Nietzsche's losing of his mind, I like to think perhaps he discovered some truth, asked some question which in an instant transported him into himself, into a new world. My will to meaning is there and I often fabricate meanings of life and righteous paths which I think I should take* but, there is always a feeling of self delusion which usually causes me to stop the wishful thinking.

So what to do? how to live? I find it ever so frustrating to exist.

*the latest delusion is that I should give myself over to humanity, become the tragic hero on such a secretive level that no one notices. To live a life of duty to others without them even knowing. This way I have a purpose- to give, and it is not underscored by self fulfillment because the mission includes not allowing any one to know the mission, not to let them know my life is theirs.

Dan.

[Mephistopheles]

Originally Posted by boagie

Mephistopheles,

"I am not afraid of dying, I just do not want to be there when it happens." Woody Allen

You have outlined the human conditon pretty well I would say, King Lear would be proud. Schopenhauer once said, "Life is something which should never have been." The late Joseph Campbell said of this, that he thought it an immature stance. So, it was not your intension to be here, and yet, here are, you might as well put your will behind it and play the best game you can, or as Nietzsche said, "Life requires a sacred yes." "Look to long into the abyss and the abyss will look into you." It is a mistake I believe to take death personally. As I heard it expressed once, it is a matter of what you choose to identify with, take a great chandelier with its many bulbs, a bulb burns out, the caretaker comes and replaces said bulb, if we were identifying with the bulb we would feel like mourning, if however you identitfied with the light of the chandelier, the light is relatively immortal. What is it you imagine dies at the event of your death, are you the light or are you a bulb. I could get off on a tangent about just what personal idenity really is but perhaps in another thread.

Again Mephistopheles, Welcome, we are most pleased to have you with us!

Well thank you buddy. I appreciate your comments greatly. I have low self-esteem and I always feel my writings are inadequate.

If I hadn't been banned I would not be here, no. I know that probably raises warning flags but a person who was banned for a good reason would never let people know he was banned. I'm glad to be here though. The atmosphere is relaxed, intellectual, and polite as far as I can tell.

[de_budding]

Originally Posted by Mephistopheles

Well thank you buddy. I appreciate your comments greatly. I have low self-esteem and I always feel my writings are inadequate.

If I hadn't been banned I would not be here, no. I know that probably raises warning flags but a person who was banned for a good reason would never let people know he was banned. I'm glad to be here though. The atmosphere is relaxed, intellectual, and polite as far as I can tell.

Why were you banned and where from?

Also I forgot to say welcome, welcome!
Dan.

[Mephistopheles]

Originally Posted by de_budding

Wow, that is a very comprehensive description of how a spade really is a spade, thank you . But this train of thought leads me to question the likely hood that 'I' could come into existence... the phrase that comes to mind when I truly consider my situation compared to the universe is... WTF! A completely sublime experience.

Never the less you have described how I feel about my life, searches for meaning and my efforts to lead a 'good' and satisfying life. And I think my conclusion is reflected in how I see Nietzsche's losing of his mind, I like to think perhaps he discovered some truth, asked some question which in an instant transported him into himself, into a new world. My will to meaning is there and I often fabricate meanings of life and righteous paths which I think I should take* but, there is always a feeling of self delusion which usually causes me to stop the wishful thinking.

So what to do? how to live? I find it ever so frustrating to exist.

*the latest delusion is that I should give myself over to humanity, become the tragic hero on such a secretive level that no one notices. To live a life of duty to others without them even knowing. This way I have a purpose- to give, and it is not underscored by self fulfillment because the mission includes not allowing any one to know the mission, not to let them know my life is theirs.

Dan.

I want to say thank you to boagie and yourself, Dan, for providing interesting and positive comments (not that I don't welcome negative comments). I feel like this is a nice forum after all.

I understand how depressing Nietzsche becomes. My suggestion to you is rise above the petty masses. Succeed in the way you want to succeed, consider adopting some hedonistic concepts from LaVeyan Satanism, consider humanism. Live for the moment. Be yourself. Be an individual. Live your life so well people will weep when you die. That's a life having worth lived.

[de_budding]

Thank for your kind suggestions, I'll be sure to follow it up , and what a heroic backstory you have, lose many men in soriangate?

Dan.

[Mephistopheles]

Originally Posted by de_budding

Thank for your kind suggestions, I'll be sure to follow it up , and what a heroic backstory you have, lose many men in soriangate?

Dan.

Heh. It was an epic battle that spanned almost an entire year. We lost many people, largley due to disgust. People got so tired of the endless fighting.

[de_budding]

What was the debate topic that got it started? I think we should try it here, compare and contrast.

Dan.

[beyond123]

This post holds absolutely no critical intent toward the OP or any of its other replies. It is merely an expressed simple thought concerning the likelihood of an intent and purpose behind existences as it now exist.

When I say, “…intent and purpose behind existence as it now exist.” I am, of course, only referring to the parts of existences that have a cause, and result from, and/or, rely on, others parts of existence for their coming into, and remaining within, the existing form of existence. This necessarily excludes the fundamental features (my term for any feature of existences that has no known cause, such as time, space, darkness, temperature, and others) because anything that arises from intend for a purpose needs a cause.

I only write such a thought so that I, myself, may better understand it; I post it only for the fun of participation, not to affect other’s thinking.

Without absolute loyalty to any, but study of many of civilization’s numerous institutions, as well as my personal observations of nature itself, including humans, I can not help but sense both intent and purpose behind nature’s existences-all of it, not just our universe-merely by thinking beyond abc123. However, I claim no understanding of the what, where, when, how, why, or function of either; nor do I assert, or even suggest, that either includes or involves any special consideration for humans.

So here it is so generally stated:

When I seriously and deeply think of the zillions upon zillions of extremely various and complex aspects and activities of nature-yet also, detect such an unbelievably simplistic certainty for it endless operations, I most certainly sense an intentional and purposeful organization, which necessarily arises from, and relies upon, some extreme (perhaps supreme) wisdom that includes an independent will of its own, far beyond human comprehension, yet, from the same necessity, arouses human interest.

For those who doubt the merit of such a generalization and find cause to argue its simple point, I only urge them-own their own-to to seek the involved details beyond abc123 search standards.

An added thought, if present existence does indeed arise from natural intent and purpose, humans-as well as all other parts thereof-just may have a specific-but broad-function to serve here on earth, of course they seemingly must first learn to attend to their own needs without so much violence toward each other.