Is death a good or bad thing?

[The light]

Hey,

I have always been a firm believer that death is a good thing.Not that I am in need of sympathy, but I have had many moments in my life which were beyond despair.I live a life of mistakes,regrets and an inability to forgive myself for my acts of evil.
I am still haunted by my demons of past crimes and regrets.Each and every day I am made to re-live who and what I am, and what I have done;over,and over, and over again. Despite turning to the light [ God/Love] and therefore, becoming a good man, I will never be able to remove myself from the scars that I have cast upon myself. Death will be my release,my forgiveness,my judgement. I will slay the demons once and for all by taking them to death with me. In death I will find the peace I have always dreamt of. I will lie there in happiness and tranquilitity, undisturbed by evil forever. I've got to ask; what other judgement can there be, that is better than that?

I believe Socrates when he said:

we shall see that there is great reason to hope that death is a good, for one of two things: - either death is a state of nothingness and utter unconsciousness, or, as men say, there is a change and migration of the soul from this world to another. Now if you suppose that there is no consciousness, but a sleep like the sleep of him who is undisturbed even by the sight of dreams, death will be an unspeakable gain. For if a person were to select the night in which his sleep was undisturbed even by dreams, and were to compare with this the other days and nights of his life, and then were to tell us how many days and nights he had passed in the course of his life better and more pleasantly than this one, I think that any man, I will not say a private man, but even the great king, will not find many such days or nights, when compared with the others. Now if death is like this, I say that to die is gain; for eternity is then only a single night. But if death is the journey to another place, and there, as men say, all the dead are, what good, O my friends and judges, can be greater than this? If indeed when the pilgrim arrives in the world below, he is delivered from the professors of justice in this world, and finds the true judges who are said to give judgment there, Minos and Rhadamanthus and Aeacus and Triptolemus, and other sons of God who were righteous in their own life, that pilgrimage will be worth making. What would not a man give if he might converse with Orpheus and Musaeus and Hesiod and Homer? Nay, if this be true, let me die again and again.

Poetic as he put it;Socrates had a point. Both sides of the "death" coin are most surely good things, don't you think?

God bless.
Thanks,take care
James

[Moderator edit: thread moved to more appropriate forum. jgw]

[TheFlyingAsian]

I see how you can see death as that sort of final, redemptive end to all bad things. Personally, I don't see the value in death in that way, probably because I don't have the same...guilt? about my past as you probably do.

I see the value in death as not an end to all that is bad, but rather as an end in general. It's kind of hard for me to explain, but I see that if any individual entiety was eternal or whatever, it would hold some grave consequences for, among other things, how we humans would know the world (bold for emphasis). As of now, nothing (I mean in terms of objects and people and things, not ideals) in this material world that we humans know of is officially "forever". The closest I can think of is God, and, no offense, I think that the idea of God and an eternal afterworld has messed up humanity pretty badly too, refering to how the concept of eternity affects a person, and thus a society.

[Khethil]

My feelings on death and despair:

• Death is neither good nor bad; its simply the one inevitability we all must face; the end to our individual existence. As such, each moment is so much the more precious and so much the more important.

• Premature or voluntary death does only one thing: It eliminates all possibility that anything will feel or "get better".

• I concur with FlyingAsian in that the notion of an eternal after has messed up humanity pretty badly. Cherish your friends, family, happiness while you're here.

• You can't change the regrettable things you've done. Only one good can come from them; that you learn from and forgive yourself. If your theology prevents you from doing this, no good can come. Making amends (in whatever form) can sometimes help, but ultimately its' we - and only we - who can forgive ourselves. That doesn't equate to "acting like its alright". What's done is done and eventually you'll need to let it go or it'll eat you alive.

Good luck, I hope you find some peace in this world. Your friends, family and other acquaintances can offer comfort and insight... embracing is a good thing

Thanks

[xris]

We all have our crosses to bear some are heavier than others..we dont know what awaits us after death but lets asume they could both be true..one we enter another state and we wander in pain for the sins we did notmake recompense for or we enter oblivion...dont think you are alone carrying your regrets and sins friend but you have made the first steps to what you might call redemption by accepting your crimes..Its your punishment.. dont try escaping from them but do as i do ..do equal good in return ...for every good deed you do the burden will be lifted that i can assure you..Peace will come by your own effort not by escaping...

[The light]

Hey TheFlyingAsian,
Hey Khethil,
Hey xris,

Originally Posted by TheFlyingAsian

I see how you can see death as that sort of final, redemptive end to all bad things. Personally, I don't see the value in death in that way, probably because I don't have the same...guilt? about my past as you probably do.

That's a very fair response; you're probably right on that one.

I see the value in death as not an end to all that is bad, but rather as an end in general. It's kind of hard for me to explain, but I see that if any individual entiety was eternal or whatever, it would hold some grave consequences for, among other things, how we humans would know the world (bold for emphasis). As of now, nothing (I mean in terms of objects and people and things, not ideals) in this material world that we humans know of is officially "forever". The closest I can think of is God, and, no offense, I think that the idea of God and an eternal afterworld has messed up humanity pretty badly too, refering to how the concept of eternity affects a person, and thus a society.

Another respectable response.
Don't worry, I'm not offended if you don't believe in the same theories as me; I respect your oppinion.

I wonder, what is it you mean by the bit in bold above? [ The bit I bolded out]

Originally Posted by Khethil

My feelings on death and despair:

• Death is neither good nor bad; its simply the one inevitability we all must face; the end to our individual existence. As such, each moment is so much the more precious and so much the more important.

If life is so precious and so important, wouldent that imply that death [ the ending of that life ] is a bad thing? - Because it is ending an important and precious process, and therefore that death is not neither good nor evil - Just a thought.

• Premature or voluntary death does only one thing: It eliminates all possibility that anything will feel or "get better".

Yes if you presume that there is a physical and conscious life after death. If you presume is a state of complete unconsciousness and nothingness then it will be getting better. Where there is no pain, there is no grief. Where there is known knowledge of pain, there is no pain.What you don't know can't hurt you.

• You can't change the regrettable things you've done. Only one good can come from them; that you learn from and forgive yourself. If your theology prevents you from doing this, no good can come. Making amends (in whatever form) can sometimes help, but ultimately its' we - and only we - who can forgive ourselves. That doesn't equate to "acting like its alright". What's done is done and eventually you'll need to let it go or it'll eat you alive.

Good luck, I hope you find some peace in this world. Your friends, family and other acquaintances can offer comfort and insight... embracing is a good thing

Thanks

Thankyou very much for the advice and your cconsiderations.

Btw guys, although your considerations are most appreciated; I wasn't looking for sympathy. I'm a man, I have to learn to live with my past.

Also I appologize that I cannot describe the OP in a less over-dramatic and poetic manner. When I speak from the soul and the heart, its all that I can amass.
Right anyway, back to the responses...

Originally Posted by xris

We all have our crosses to bear some are heavier than others..we dont know what awaits us after death but lets asume they could both be true..one we enter another state and we wander in pain for the sins we did notmake recompense for or we enter oblivion...dont think you are alone carrying your regrets and sins friend but you have made the first steps to what you might call redemption by accepting your crimes..Its your punishment.. dont try escaping from them but do as i do ..do equal good in return ...for every good deed you do the burden will be lifted that i can assure you..

First of all, I am truely and genuinely very appreciative of your concern; thank you very much my friend.

Second; thankyou for the advice.

Peace will come by your own effort not by escaping...

This is a curious thought my friend.
May I ask, what is more peaceful:Forgiveness or an unconsciousness of what needs to be forgived? Is it much better to known about your past sins, and go through a process of forgiveness; or is it better to be unaware of those sins? Which one would be more peaceful?- Just another thought.

God bless.
- Thanks alot,Take care
James

[xris]

Being unaware of your sins has its own consequences...you are not truly human and you loose so much in your contacts with other humans and fulfillment in life.

[sarek]

I would venture forth that we might be able to consider each of us as holding a 'talent fraction' of the whole.
The responsibility falls on our mortal selves to develop this fraction to the fullest and thus contribute to the whole.
The universe has to become whatever it is that it has to become, and we are part of that process.
In that sense death is a natural occurrence. The closing of a chapter. If our part in it is done our books are closed.

On the personal level choosing life over death is normally the best choice. What is done can never be undone, but in death the good things one might have done in the future also remain forever undone. One should never feel that redemption is categorically impossible.

[DJMaux]

My friend dont hate your self for your past mistakes..
The is no such thing as free will. Everything is fate.
Everything bad you have done is because god is contolling you.
You are forgiven for all sins because you are not to blame for any of them.

Even if we did have free will god would forgive all sins.
Just realise that what you did was wrong and dont do it again.
Do not spend the rest of your life feeling bad.
I have done terrible things in my past but I forgive myself.
You need to forgive your self too.
Unconditional love for all and your self!

[Icon]

It is quite often that my friends come to me and grief over recent mistakes and they ask me how I can deal with life in such a way as to not let things get to me. They seem to think that I am some sort of machine, incapable of feeling hurt or pain or anger. It has taken many years of my life to understand a very simple creed.

If you can't do anything about it then don't worry about it. If you CAN do something about it then don't worry about it and just do what you have to do.

Another way that this can be described is as simple as, "There is not such thing as right and wrong. Only left and right." ~J. Owens
Which has a root in the idea of Socrates in which he states that no man wishes to be evil. At the time of action, the action was considered correct or appropriate which means that you felt the situation called for such a thing. You will inevitably change through-out your life as you learn and grow and observe. As you grow, you come to realize that choices you've made in the past were not correct by your current thinking. You may even find that you made the right choices but not for the right reasons. Regardless, you did what you felt you must. To regret a mistake is to admit that you have not learned from it for if you have truly learned from a mistake then there is no fear of making the same mistake twice. Regret is an emotion based on the fear of repeating the past.

There is no right and wrong because every situation is different and, as a human being, you have to consider your emotional state to be just as important, if not more so, as your logical state. Your emotional state can cripple you or inspire you to greatness depending on your control of it. Control does not come easy though. Just as the mind grows as we learn new things, the emotional state grows as we feel more things. Pain, suffering, joy, happiness, and everything inbetween are all important for emotional growth. Left or right my friend, never right or wrong. You can control your actions but you cannot control the results of those actions. To think that you can is your first, and possibly last, mistake.

As far as death goes, I have been facinated with the subject for quite some time. I have been pronounced dead in my life time and was dead for wuite a long period before I "woke up". I was not revived. My heart simply started beating again and my brain activity was restored. Still a bit of a mystery but this got me thinking. What if death is a natural way of letting us know we have done enough or not enough by a certain in our lives. We have a life span which is connected with the amount in which we breed and grow (or so it used to be prior to over population). Death, in my opinion comes naturally when you have acheived all you can and so it is your time to die. Death is important for just such a thing. It is our job to learn and grow and then teach our children. We must be progressive and determined towards this goal. We must share our knowledge and understanding of the universe with the collective idea of human evolution and continuation. When we have contributed all that we can; when we have served our purpose and have become a drain on society; it is our time to die and make space for the next generation. We are creatures like any other. We are not as special as we believe. Deep down, it is still our sole purpose to teach the next generation and continue our species, propeling them forward as much as one life will allow.

Yes, death is important but not for the purpose of dieing. Death is important for the purpose of continuing on. Moving forward through history and teaching all that we can learn.

[The light]

Hey xris,
Hey DJMaux,
Hey Icon,

Sorry guys for the slow response. My internet has been playing up lately.

Originally Posted by xris

Being unaware of your sins has its own consequences...you are not truly human and you loose so much in your contacts with other humans and fulfillment in life.

Really? Happyness is easier found in innocence;children are a good example of that. Young children are unaware of sins and are often happy.

On the personal level choosing life over death is normally the best choice. What is done can never be undone, but in death the good things one might have done in the future also remain forever undone. One should never feel that redemption is categorically impossible.

Aha, a fine point!

I think the real question here is :Is it better to become unconscious and unaware of your sins, or is it better to forgive yourself from your sins;which will not neccessarily work?

Does happyness lie in an unconscious state of existence, or an enlightened state of existence?

Originally Posted by DJMaux

My friend dont hate your self for your past mistakes..
The is no such thing as free will. Everything is fate.
Everything bad you have done is because god is contolling you.
You are forgiven for all sins because you are not to blame for any of them.

Even if we did have free will god would forgive all sins.
Just realise that what you did was wrong and dont do it again.
Do not spend the rest of your life feeling bad.
I have done terrible things in my past but I forgive myself.
You need to forgive your self too.
Unconditional love for all and your self!

Although I'm sure God didn't intend for me to completely blatently break the laws of virtue, I very much loved this post my friend;again, it is much appreciated.

Originally Posted by Icon

If you can't do anything about it then don't worry about it. If you CAN do something about it then don't worry about it and just do what you have to do.

Completely agree, brilliant piece of advice.

Another way that this can be described is as simple as, "There is not such thing as right and wrong. Only left and right." ~J. Owens
Which has a root in the idea of Socrates in which he states that no man wishes to be evil. At the time of action, the action was considered correct or appropriate which means that you felt the situation called for such a thing. You will inevitably change through-out your life as you learn and grow and observe. As you grow, you come to realize that choices you've made in the past were not correct by your current thinking. You may even find that you made the right choices but not for the right reasons.
Regardless, you did what you felt you must. To regret a mistake is to admit that you have not learned from it for if you have truly learned from a mistake then there is no fear of making the same mistake twice. Regret is an emotion based on the fear of repeating the past.

Completely agree.
[quote]
There is no right and wrong because every situation is different and, as a human being, you have to consider your emotional state to be just as important, if not more so, as your logical state. Your emotional state can cripple you or inspire you to greatness depending on your control of it. Control does not come easy though. Just as the mind grows as we learn new things, the emotional state grows as we feel more things. Pain, suffering, joy, happiness, and everything inbetween are all important for emotional growth. Left or right my friend, never right or wrong. You can control your actions but you cannot control the results of those actions. To think that you can is your first, and possibly last, mistake.
[quote]
Nice post.
BIT IN BOLD: This is an interesting sentence my friend. I wonder then, before I project my thoughts may I ask: Do all good actions reap good results and all good actions reap bad results?

As far as death goes, I have been facinated with the subject for quite some time.

Same here. The concept of death is unique in that it's seen as such a bad thing, while life isn't seen as much better. Society, atleast here in the UK is too weak to die and not strong enough to live.

Death, in my opinion comes naturally when you have acheived all you can and so it is your time to die. Death is important for just such a thing. It is our job to learn and grow and then teach our children. We must be progressive and determined towards this goal. We must share our knowledge and understanding of the universe with the collective idea of human evolution and continuation. When we have contributed all that we can; when we have served our purpose and have become a drain on society; it is our time to die and make space for the next generation. We are creatures like any other. We are not as special as we believe. Deep down, it is still our sole purpose to teach the next generation and continue our species, propeling them forward as much as one life will allow.

A more than respectable theory my friend. A thought: If death comes naturally when we have achieved all we can achieve in our life; why is that people die before they have achieved all they can achieve? - Why is that people are murdered, and die of illnesse's, and commit suicide?

That is why people worry about death and it's why they see it as being inherently bad; they assume that they have not made a big enough 'footprint' on society and that in their life they haven't acheived enough. Personally I don't think a man should live his life in pursuit of materialistic acheivements, only in pursuit of making the world a better place. I live to put my mark on hearts, not on marble. For those who choose materialistic achievements [ not neccessarily bad btw ] death seems to be a bit of a barrier. For those who live for love in all aspects of life, death becomes a release from all the pain,anger, hate and negativity they have had to bear;which is coincidently why I see death as a good thing.

What do you think my friend?

Yes, death is important but not for the purpose of dieing. Death is important for the purpose of continuing on. Moving forward through history and teaching all that we can learn.

I agree here, although I think moral,ethical,logical and spiritual achievements should live on instead of materialistic ones. It is not what you acheive in life that counts but it is the manner in which you achieve it that counts. The outcome is inferior to the means.


God bless.
-Thanks alot, Take care
James