Does Your Divine Promote Theology or Reason?

[Holiday20310401]

Warning: The following thoughts are for those who believe in free thought, reasoning, and critical thought. Those who feel that a book can represent the ultimate truth, and we ourselves must follow it for all our answers to our problems and ignore that cognitive process we mysteriously just happen to have... then I wish for you to read on. However, if you are stubborn not to see merit in the flip side of the coin, or will only take offense to this, that is not my intent and it will only be for the better not to read on. (This probably only applies to the guests)

I normally don't care for thinking about God anymore, but my family has taken a liking to force me to get involved in their religious activity. I have to take part in prayer at dinner, church, and I just want to go about my atheistic life without my parents worrying about eternity. Why would God do that to us anyways; want us to worry in life when we know there is sin and such of our eternal soul. The eternal soul is just transcendent to me. It has no potential in life, why does it matter?

And I wonder, if God can convey the ultimate truth and morals, and has omnipotence, then why is there a finite sized book to grasp all answers from? Why does the divine have to be this perfect divinity?

Why is it that when we have critical thought and we can discern faults of the bible, faults of the morals that are tried as perfect for our society. What do we as human beings want more: to have a virtuous society, or making the leader needed?

Why does the spiritual leader need to be construed with the physical world, the reality that social interaction is a part of. In the dualities contrived by man, there is likewise going to be two sides to everything, therefore there can be no objective good that must be followed for the most righteous path in eternity, just as there will always be somebody who sees wrong in the morals established in the book.

Is this God, really going to condemn us to this materialistic book that promotes dualities that will inevitably lead some to “eternal doom”? Ignorance is something God does not want, or sorry, for the theologians, if the bible doesn’t say so then I guess God promotes ignorance?

[Khethil]

Holiday,

It sounds to me like you're well on your way to some personal enlightenment. Are you speaking of the Christian Bible or the Koran of Islam? (or perhaps some other - just curious; such sentiments could be applicable to a number of book-based religions).

It sounds like your parents fear for your immortal soul. If this be the case, I wouldn't find their behavior surprising or condemn it, per say (as its quite understandable for a parent to be so protective).

Good luck on finding your answers. If I be so bold as to give some unsolicited advice: Your theological view, over time, may change a number of times. Despite the fact these are deeply-held views, allowing oneself to be open and change as the heart dictates - I think - is something to strive for.

Good post. Good luck

Thanks

[Didymos Thomas]

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

I normally don't care for thinking about God anymore, but my family has taken a liking to force me to get involved in their religious activity. I have to take part in prayer at dinner, church, and I just want to go about my atheistic life without my parents worrying about eternity. Why would God do that to us anyways; want us to worry in life when we know there is sin and such of our eternal soul. The eternal soul is just transcendent to me. It has no potential in life, why does it matter?

Worrying about eternity is a fairly natural thing for humans to do. I think it's safe to say that we all, at some time or another, worry about eternity. Sounds like your parents are religious people. It's pretty normal for religious parents to want to pass on their values and beliefs to their children. I'm sorry they force you to do these things, but I can also sympathize. At your age I was also an atheist and was forced to do the very same things.

If I might suggest some things to consider... Going to church, the prayer before each meal, and these sorts of activities are more than religious devotions. These are also family and community activities. I have no doubt your parents are concerned for your soul, but I imagine they are more interested in immediate concerns, like spending time with their son before he turns 18 and runs off into his own life. Going to church and the prayer at meals might be a part of that, part of their interest in doing things with you before you leave the nest. In that light, maybe it's alright to go along. At the very least you can do what I used to do during the sermon - take notes and devise critical arguments of what the preacher said. Perhaps you could meet them halfway? It was very helpful for me to talk to my parents - I explained to them that I was an atheist, but that I still had a strong set of values, values that I learned from them, and values that continue to grow in a large part because of what they, your parents, have taught. Maybe you and your parents could agree that you will attend church every other Sunday instead of every Sunday, or something like that. Who knows.

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

And I wonder, if God can convey the ultimate truth and morals, and has omnipotence, then why is there a finite sized book to grasp all answers from? Why does the divine have to be this perfect divinity?

Two very good questions. To answer the first, I would suggest that the book, presumably the Bible, does not have all of the answers. Like any other scripture, the Bible points the way.

To the second: This is more complicated, I think. Honestly, the "divine", or God, does not have to be perfect. The way various Christian groups, and other faith traditions, speak of God is just a matter of language. God, I think, is something to be experienced. No two people see the same event the same way, and no two people can be expected to convey God in language in the same way.

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

Why is it that when we have critical thought and we can discern faults of the bible, faults of the morals that are tried as perfect for our society. What do we as human beings want more: to have a virtuous society, or making the leader needed?

I'm not sure what you mean.

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

Why does the spiritual leader need to be construed with the physical world, the reality that social interaction is a part of. In the dualities contrived by man, there is likewise going to be two sides to everything, therefore there can be no objective good that must be followed for the most righteous path in eternity, just as there will always be somebody who sees wrong in the morals established in the book.

Well, if the spiritual leader does not exist in the physical world, that leader is going to have a heck of a hard time leading those of us in the physical world.

You're right that there is no objectively right path. All humans are different and we all have different experiences. Thus we all have our own unique path. If someone says there is only one way to God, well, personally I just try to smile and go about my way.

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

Is this God, really going to condemn us to this materialistic book that promotes dualities that will inevitably lead some to “eternal doom”? Ignorance is something God does not want, or sorry, for the theologians, if the bible doesn’t say so then I guess God promotes ignorance?

I don't think so. The Bible is just one book. There are many, many more great examples of scripture in this world aside from the Bible. Though, I'm not so sure the Bible promotes duality. The story of Adam and Eve and the fruit, getting expelled from Eden and all that, struck me as a strong warning against dualistic thinking.

Also, I think the Bible promotes wisdom. King Solomon is an important figure in the Old Testament who is celebrated for his wisdom.

[xris]

I think you have started your journey and many questions lie ahead...just answer them with honesty..good luck..

[jgweed]

An unchallenged faith is not worth having.

[socrato]

I believe in God and he does the critical thinking for us, that's what makes it so at ease sort-a-thing. The ten commandments are still right, it's just that people inevitably sin so what use are they as truth.

[OctoberMist]

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

I normally don't care for thinking about God anymore, but my family has taken a liking to force me to get involved in their religious activity.

I urge you to resist this. You are your own person and your family should respect your boundries about your own belief system.

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

And I wonder, if God can convey the ultimate truth and morals, and has omnipotence, then why is there a finite sized book to grasp all answers from? Why does the divine have to be this perfect divinity?

Not everone who believes in God believes that God only speaks through religious texts; I certainly do not. -- Be careful about making generalizations.

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

Why is it that when we have critical thought and we can discern faults of the bible, faults of the morals that are tried as perfect for our society.

The Bible is but one explanation for God; it is certainly not the only source of wisdom in the world. Don't forget that.

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

Why does the spiritual leader need to be construed with the physical world, the reality that social interaction is a part of. In the dualities contrived by man, there is likewise going to be two sides to everything, therefore there can be no objective good that must be followed for the most righteous path in eternity, just as there will always be somebody who sees wrong in the morals established in the book.

I sypathize with your feeling of injustice, however I must say that you are (and I do NOT mean this to be insulting) ignorantly generalizing both God and Religion into a vague Christian conception of such things.

Both God and Religion are far bigger than Christianity.

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

Is this God, really going to condemn us to this materialistic book that promotes dualities that will inevitably lead some to “eternal doom”?

I believe in God and I do NOT believe so at all. Nor do I think that Christianity has the excusive take on spirituality.

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

Ignorance is something God does not want, or sorry, for the theologians, if the bible doesn’t say so then I guess God promotes ignorance?

No offense is intended, but I have to laugh at the above statement.

If you're not a Christian, why do you think that the Bible is the only truth possible for you? -- It's not.

You are free to examine ALL philosophies and faiths and choose which is right for you. I do not believe that God promotes only a single brand of philosophy or speaks only to Christians. Why do you?

Something to think about.

[Didymos Thomas]

Even if he were a Christian, to think that the Bible could be the only source of truth would be a terrible folly.

[Holiday20310401]

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

At your age I was also an atheist and was forced to do the very same things.

What made you become a theist?

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

At the very least you can do what I used to do during the sermon - take notes and devise critical arguments of what the preacher said. Perhaps you could meet them halfway?

That is actually I good idea.

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

does not have all of the answers.
Honestly, the "divine", or God, does not have to be perfect. The way various Christian groups, and other faith traditions, speak of God is just a matter of language. God, I think, is something to be experienced. No two people see the same event the same way, and no two people can be expected to convey God in language in the same way.

I completely agree.

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

I'm not sure what you mean.

Well, if the leader, being God, is to be needed, or Jesus Christ our spiritual leader; what is more important? Making the leader actually needed in our spiritual side via more than just doing good in life; or working for a virtuous society? What is the point of doing more than good?

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

Well, if the spiritual leader does not exist in the physical world, that leader is going to have a heck of a hard time leading those of us in the physical world.

Yes but is a spiritual leader in the physical world in the sense of objective gain doing anything for spiritual progress, or just for spiritual centralizing of opinion.

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

Though, I'm not so sure the Bible promotes duality.

Sorry didn't word this right at all. I meant that the bible emanates this absoluteness of morality and wisdom, for fundamentalists especially. And then this absoluteness is rebuked by society in a dualistic manner being that there will be two sides to what is supposed to be a monistic truth influence on the people. People will define the traits of the posited truths in the Bible as good or evil. So it promotes duality without that reciprocity because it seems to have promoted these fundamental claims of holiness and such that make morals too objective for the betterment of society. The objective mentality evokes people taking offense much too easily, because they'll see themselves as more right when it's all about keeping an open mind and not being easily offended so as to promote needless conflict.

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

Also, I think the Bible promotes wisdom. King Solomon is an important figure in the Old Testament who is celebrated for his wisdom.

Yes I am very liberal about the Bible, just also an atheist at the same time.

Originally Posted by jgweed

An unchallenged faith is not worth having.

Can I like, use this in discussions at school! I love it.

Originally Posted by OctoberMist

The Bible is but one explanation for God; it is certainly not the only source of wisdom in the world. Don't forget that.

Is it that fundamentalists don't see this or just don't find it relevant?

Originally Posted by OctoberMist

I sypathize with your feeling of injustice, however I must say that you are (and I do NOT mean this to be insulting) ignorantly generalizing both God and Religion into a vague Christian conception of such things.

No offense taken. It's a rough draft, what can I say.

Originally Posted by OctoberMist

No offense is intended, but I have to laugh at the above statement.

I guess what I meant was that Christianity does not see God as allowing free thought. What's funny about it?

Originally Posted by OctoberMist

If you're not a Christian, why do you think that the Bible is the only truth possible for you? -- It's not.

Tell that to my relatives.

Originally Posted by OctoberMist

You are free to examine ALL philosophies and faiths and choose which is right for you. I do not believe that God promotes only a single brand of philosophy or speaks only to Christians. Why do you?

, I don't, did it really sound that way? I'll have to go back and fix some stuff.

[Didymos Thomas]

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

What made you become a theist?

Life, I suppose. Listen, though - there is no reason to believe in God until you find that reason for yourself. You will be just fine without God, but if God makes sense to you go that way. We each have our own path to follow.
A theist is someone who believes in God. The important question is: what is God? I do not think that a precise answer exists. I think God is experiential. I'm not Moses or anybody, and my experience is nothing like the intense experiences of visionaries or prophets. But even a simple person like myself can catch a glimpse from time to time. For me, what I see is God. Maybe you call it something different. That's okay.

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

Well, if the leader, being God, is to be needed, or Jesus Christ our spiritual leader; what is more important? Making the leader actually needed in our spiritual side via more than just doing good in life; or working for a virtuous society? What is the point of doing more than good?

What more can you do than good?

Jesus and God - these are not spiritual leaders. Have you shaken the hand of either of them? I haven't. The story of Jesus suggests various meanings - most importantly, I think, is compassion. That's what Jesus is about. And God, well, God is just a word and different people use different words. Words are not so important.

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

Yes but is a spiritual leader in the physical world in the sense of objective gain doing anything for spiritual progress, or just for spiritual centralizing of opinion.

Debate about objectivity aside...
Some spiritual leaders are nothing but power hungry maniacs. Others, luckily, are decent and loving people. Compare someone like Jerry Falwell to the Dalai Lama. One shames his faith tradition, the other is a beacon of humanity.

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

Sorry didn't word this right at all. I meant that the bible emanates this absoluteness of morality and wisdom, for fundamentalists especially. And then this absoluteness is rebuked by society in a dualistic manner being that there will be two sides to what is supposed to be a monistic truth influence on the people. People will define the traits of the posited truths in the Bible as good or evil. So it promotes duality without that reciprocity because it seems to have promoted these fundamental claims of holiness and such that make morals too objective for the betterment of society. The objective mentality evokes people taking offense much too easily, because they'll see themselves as more right when it's all about keeping an open mind and not being easily offended so as to promote needless conflict.

Ah, I see - you are concerned about the divisiveness of religion. Me, too. But I do not think that divisiveness among humans is a problem of religion, but a problem that we as a species face. Nearly anything can divide us. Politics, style, anything. That's the good thing about religion, well, religion that is well guided: good religion offers practices to help practitioners avoid divisiveness and promote loving kindness. Unfortunately, our species has a remarkable ability to corrupt nearly anything.

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

Yes I am very liberal about the Bible, just also an atheist at the same time.

Nothing wrong with that. I read Homer, find value in that work, but I do not spend time worshiping as the ancient Greeks once worshiped.

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

Is it that fundamentalists don't see this or just don't find it relevant?

Sorry to jump in, but, if I may, fundamentalists read the Bible literally. Of course, even literal interpretation is still interpretation and even fundamentalists find ways to disagree. Most fundamentalists, though, would reject the notion that salvation can come from any means other than those prescribed by their cult's dogma.