Does Your Divine Promote Theology or Reason?

[avatar6v7]

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

Warning: The following thoughts are for those who believe in free thought, reasoning, and critical thought. Those who feel that a book can represent the ultimate truth, and we ourselves must follow it for all our answers to our problems and ignore that cognitive process we mysteriously just happen to have... then I wish for you to read on. However, if you are stubborn not to see merit in the flip side of the coin, or will only take offense to this, that is not my intent and it will only be for the better not to read on. (This probably only applies to the guests)
........
Ignorance is something God does not want, or sorry, for the theologians, if the bible doesn’t say so then I guess God promotes ignorance?

Your casual assumption that all christians are utterly unquestioning is already foolish and your title epitomises it- theology or reason? Have you ever read any theology? Thomas Aquinas, one of the most important theologians in history, whose work has been made official doctrine in the catholic church was a vast proponent of reason. He believed that we should employ the reason and logic proposed by thinkers such as Aristotle to question the universe, existance and our faith. Perhaps you should try employing these methods as opposed to predetermining your posistion. I have thouraghly questioned, and am continueing to question and test my faith, are you questioning yours?

[Holiday20310401]

Constantly, all the time. I try to be open minded about things. Yes I know of Aquinas and his work revolved around reason while he is still considered a theologist.

However, I wonder, can one really study the attributes of God? One can study the bible to study God if they consider a relevant connection between the two.

No, when I speak of christianity it is primarily the fundamentalists which I speak of.

I sense you feel offended by my remarks on here. If so, may I ask why? What would it ultimately matter, avatar?

[avatar6v7]

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

Constantly, all the time. I try to be open minded about things. Yes I know of Aquinas and his work revolved around reason while he is still considered a theologist.

However, I wonder, can one really study the attributes of God? One can study the bible to study God if they consider a relevant connection between the two.

No, when I speak of christianity it is primarily the fundamentalists which I speak of.

I sense you feel offended by my remarks on here. If so, may I ask why? What would it ultimately matter, avatar?

That you have decided christians are fundamentalists as a whole. You say christians in a general sense to mean fundamentalist christians, as if they were the representative view. I am not if you are asking bothered by your questioning of my faith, but your decision to put it at odds with reason as an assumption, as opposed to an argument attacking the rational basis for faith. You say you wish to be open minded but you begin with the premise of 'faith or reason' as if predertiming the response. Perhaps you did not mean this but nevertheless I did not wish to leave it unanswered.
As for can you really study god, the answer is yes and no depending on what you mean. Can we come closer to god by improving our knowlage and understanding of him and his creation? Yes. Can we come to conclusions about him using his word as reported in the scripture in conjunction with reason? Yes. Can we ever fully understand him? No. He is beyond human comprehension, but we can come close to understanding him, every step on an infinite road that draws us closer to him.

[Holiday20310401]

Originally Posted by avatar6v7

That you have decided christians are fundamentalists as a whole. You say christians in a general sense to mean fundamentalist christians, as if they were the representative view. I am not if you are asking bothered by your questioning of my faith, but your decision to put it at odds with reason as an assumption, as opposed to an argument attacking the rational basis for faith. You say you wish to be open minded but you begin with the premise of 'faith or reason' as if predertiming the response.

Fair enough, though it wasn't my intent.

Originally Posted by avatar6v7

Can we come closer to god by improving our knowlage and understanding of him and his creation? Yes.

What knowledge and understand of him? It's hard to do this without experiencing him. And what creation? Can we not agree that this society we have evolved into hs been created ourselves by our own behaviour? What is the point of constraining such a system to the pretence of some divine who we can only conceive of. I see no point. This transcendence lacks potential, and steals it away from society. It does not mix well with human behaviour in that people do seem to take offense to conflicting views quite seriously. I speak of religion in general here, not trying to point at christianity. For example, there was just recently a trial in which some religious nutcases had the silly idea that it would be prudent as part of their faith to carry around these mini scimitars in public. Liberal christianity is ofcourse rational, unlike this religion here but you get my point.

Originally Posted by avatar6v7

Can we come to conclusions about him using his word as reported in the scripture in conjunction with reason? Yes.

Well first of all the bible is not God's word. It was written by humans. If I am going to go any further I need to know if you advocate the notion that God is omnipresent, potent and well... ultimate... perfect. If we can get past the fact that this sort of divine is not relevant to analyze then I can continue. If not, then we are only going to constantly disagree and arise among paradoxes

Also, we can reason through the scripture, but is the scripture itself reasoning? Not really. There is wisdom, but its human reasoning written by human beings.

Originally Posted by avatar6v7

Can we ever fully understand him? No.

I agree.

Originally Posted by avatar6v7

He is beyond human comprehension, but we can come close to understanding him, every step on an infinite road that draws us closer to him.

On an infinite road, what brings us actually closer to this divine?

Relatively speaking would imply that its really just the human divine we are capable of ourselves. All the good that we do, all the supposed miracles, and such... can we not accept that there doesn't need to be a God to have these things still exist and within our capacity?

For example. Say we might actually have a social paradigm shift, perhaps a resource based economy, get rid of capitalism. Now... why must we assume that the bible can tell us what to do here? We humans are able to figure out the morals and truths to govern virtue ourselves. Conforming to a single book for wisdom is IMHO, not virtuous, especially in the long run.

[avatar6v7]

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

Fair enough, though it wasn't my intent.



1.What knowledge and understand of him? It's hard to do this without experiencing him. And what creation? Can we not agree that this society we have evolved into hs been created ourselves by our own behaviour? What is the point of constraining such a system to the pretence of some divine who we can only conceive of. I see no point. This transcendence lacks potential, and steals it away from society. It does not mix well with human behaviour in that people do seem to take offense to conflicting views quite seriously. I speak of religion in general here, not trying to point at christianity. For example, there was just recently a trial in which some religious nutcases had the silly idea that it would be prudent as part of their faith to carry around these mini scimitars in public. Liberal christianity is ofcourse rational, unlike this religion here but you get my point.

2.Well first of all the bible is not God's word. It was written by humans. If I am going to go any further I need to know if you advocate the notion that God is omnipresent, potent and well... ultimate... perfect. If we can get past the fact that this sort of divine is not relevant to analyze then I can continue. If not, then we are only going to constantly disagree and arise among paradoxes

3.Also, we can reason through the scripture, but is the scripture itself reasoning? Not really. There is wisdom, but its human reasoning written by human beings.

4.I agree.

5.On an infinite road, what brings us actually closer to this divine?

6.Relatively speaking would imply that its really just the human divine we are capable of ourselves. All the good that we do, all the supposed miracles, and such... can we not accept that there doesn't need to be a God to have these things still exist and within our capacity?

7.For example. Say we might actually have a social paradigm shift, perhaps a resource based economy, get rid of capitalism. Now... why must we assume that the bible can tell us what to do here? We humans are able to figure out the morals and truths to govern virtue ourselves. Conforming to a single book for wisdom is IMHO, not virtuous, especially in the long run.

1. Not sure what you are trying to say about society? Clarify pleae.
2. I actually said '...as reported by the scriptures', jesus ,god incarnate, spoke and his words were recorded. Certainly he was not intending to have all his words taken litreally- he used parables, metaphors etc... but his words are still there and relativly uncorrupted. Plus I think paradoxes are part of what makes christianity work. More on that later.
3. The scripture is as I described it above. We use it in conjunction with our own reason.
4. But you probably mean somthing different
5. Sceptical? Let me explain. If we add a number to another, it is higher and thus closer to infinity, but you would never reach infinity through adding. Obviously I have had to use an example of futility, because the journey towards understanding is the only fruitful infinite journey. We can learn and continue to learn about god and come closer and closer- we will never fully understand him though. Making more sense now?
6. But can you accept that all these would be possible if they didn't exist? And in order to have existance you must have a cause for existance. An uncaused cause- God.
7. There are many models for a christian society that have been put forwards over the years- for instance monastries. Obviously the Bible is a guide to shaping a society, but of course the bible would and does say that capatalism is wrong.

[Holiday20310401]

Originally Posted by avatar6v7

1. Not sure what you are trying to say about society? Clarify pleae.

Dualities are of the nature of our logic. God is omnipotent, all knowing. Hmm... dualistic absolutes...

Society is full of this. Perhaps we were a test to see if it was possible to subtract 1 from 2?

But seriously, we are a sick society. And there you go... a subjective opinion. Its no truth, no 'transcendence' can say it is the truth of the opposite. God doesn't make opinions, and that's not my kind of God.

Originally Posted by avatar6v7

2. I actually said '...as reported by the scriptures', jesus ,god incarnate, spoke and his words were recorded. Certainly he was not intending to have all his words taken litreally- he used parables, metaphors etc... but his words are still there and relativly uncorrupted. Plus I think paradoxes are part of what makes christianity work. More on that later.

Ofcourse... the writers were probably well educated. They were creative I'm sure. But I mean that stuff like turning water into wine. Sorry, its not to be literally interpreted. It comes as kinda obvious once we accept that paradigm as I once found out.

Originally Posted by avatar6v7

3. The scripture is as I described it above. We use it in conjunction with our own reason.
4. But you probably mean somthing different

Depends on what extreme you are of a Christian I suppose. Depends on whether you believe God is the ultimate truth. If God is the ultimate truth then we really can't have truths or morals for our own society. God doesn't govern our society, why should it, why would it matter. Lets say every person in this world accepted the Christian God as the ultimate ruler of the people. IMO, our society would be more corrupt than it is, we'd all be insane to adhere to a transcendent ruler. What's your opinion?

Originally Posted by avatar6v7

If we add a number to another, it is higher and thus closer to infinity, but you would never reach infinity through adding. Obviously I have had to use an example of futility, because the journey towards understanding is the only fruitful infinite journey.

Yes, yes I got this already; and understanding is to question. That's key.

Originally Posted by avatar6v7

6. But can you accept that all these would be possible if they didn't exist? And in order to have existance you must have a cause for existance. An uncaused cause- God.

Well... I think it is healthier to live knowing that I myself am the one capable of doing good, and not somebody else doing it through me.

delusion definition | Dictionary.com

Also, why would it matter if there was a divine being controlling your actions that were divine (which is a relative term). How are you going to prove this? Why would you want to believe this? I think this is a weak minded assertion used to ease people's responsibility for their actions so that when doing evil or 'sin', they believe, well ok... I wasn't with God so its forgivable. Do you not think that we could progress if we had the paradigm of believing in ourselves to bring forth divine spirit to this society? I am not a puppet of some deterministic will. If I am, I choose not to believe it as I can never know for sure. Its like the uncertainty principle.

The divine is within ourselves!!!

Originally Posted by avatar6v7

7. There are many models for a christian society that have been put forwards over the years- for instance monastries. Obviously the Bible is a guide to shaping a society, but of course the bible would and does say that capatalism is wrong.

Well that's good. Does the bible go further to suggest what it is we should do? Bartering perhaps?

[avatar6v7]

Dualities are of the nature of our logic. God is omnipotent, all knowing. Hmm... dualistic absolutes...

Society is full of this. Perhaps we were a test to see if it was possible to subtract 1 from 2?

But seriously, we are a sick society. And there you go... a subjective opinion. Its no truth, no 'transcendence' can say it is the truth of the opposite. God doesn't make opinions, and that's not my kind of God.
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I don't know what society you are talking about


Ofcourse... the writers were probably well educated. They were creative I'm sure. But I mean that stuff like turning water into wine. Sorry, its not to be literally interpreted. It comes as kinda obvious once we accept that paradigm as I once found out.
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the miracles are to be taken litreally. without them the account is meingless


Depends on what extreme you are of a Christian I suppose. Depends on whether you believe God is the ultimate truth. If God is the ultimate truth then we really can't have truths or morals for our own society. God doesn't govern our society, why should it, why would it matter. Lets say every person in this world accepted the Christian God as the ultimate ruler of the people. IMO, our society would be more corrupt than it is, we'd all be insane to adhere to a transcendent ruler. What's your opinion?
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for a start I know of no christians who don't believe god is the ultimate truth- if they did how could they be christians? Of course we can have truths and morals for our own society, but morality doesn't shift around, murder and rape don't suddenly become 'ok' As for the last you really would have to go into more detail


Well... I think it is healthier to live knowing that I myself am the one capable of doing good, and not somebody else doing it through me.

delusion definition | Dictionary.com

Also, why would it matter if there was a divine being controlling your actions that were divine (which is a relative term). How are you going to prove this? Why would you want to believe this? I think this is a weak minded assertion used to ease people's responsibility for their actions so that when doing evil or 'sin', they believe, well ok... I wasn't with God so its forgivable. Do you not think that we could progress if we had the paradigm of believing in ourselves to bring forth divine spirit to this society? I am not a puppet of some deterministic will. If I am, I choose not to believe it as I can never know for sure. Its like the uncertainty principle.

The divine is within ourselves!!!
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you seem to think that because I believe god embodys good that renders good meingless. doesn't follow. if I am doing good, then how is this devalued because good comes from god. explain yourself please.


Well that's good. Does the bible go further to suggest what it is we should do? Bartering perhaps?
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the bible criticises capatalism implicityly- there are plenty of storys about the rich being criticised(and getting their comeuppance), money being seen as sinful and money lending too. As for the alternative one would have to do an investigation into scripture and try to create a new politics from this. I don't want to get distracted or off topic on this one but I might do a thread on it some time. For the moment I will say we need a more decentralised, localised and community based economic structure but this is not the time and place for discussing it.

[Holiday20310401]

You should start a thread on that. It'd be interesting.

And also, I don't believe that God's logic trumps mine. I am able to figure out the morals of the bible myself, not to mention surpass them. I mean, there are faults with the ten commandments.

And morals are relative(there's a failure to God's logica right there, without fixing it). It is going to put humanity in a horrible place to establish absolute morals, when the behaviour of humans constitutes relative, inconsistent values. I mean, what does God want of us humans then? For us to love him over our love of eachother?! I'm sorry, but when and if I have children, its them who comes first, not God, who I can't find a reason to employ in my beliefs and understandings when it doesn't even convey itself in our realities.

It is the now that matters, fellow mankind. I can do good, and use critical thought to denounce all of God's logic to be what is right absolutely. Critical thought, if fundamentalists can't accept it's applicable then why do we have it? To make us sin?! What kind of twisted game is this!

If God is the ultimate truth, then would you employ it into the court of law? Searching away for a quote that is open to thousands of interpretations (so God didn't really convey its absoluteness very well, to be put in the context of human writing.. in fact, human form is itself naturally relative, through variation) An invariant system is therefore insane.

If God wanted absoluteness it should've made us clones.
And in the court of law if we were to just abide by the ten commandments I'm sure there'd be plenty of situations in which paradoxes would arise. Absoluteness does not itself imply paradoxical situations... it can't logically. Logic is what humans use.

And about miracles. Explain to me why you think they exist. Can you not accept the empirical evidence that probability is the influence on why some patients die in surgery and some don't. Prayer has nothing to do with it. It is enough proof to see that its probability.

For example, I'm sure that if we had a bunch of patients who prayed for help before surgery, vs. those who didn't... the probability for survival would inevitably be the same. I'd love to test this. Besides, surviving the surgery against the odds is an act of human potential. If a surgeon can do this, good for him/her. If the odds are like 1 out of a million then I'd call this a divine acheivement. Its not that God was playing any role, its simply that the probability was there that a human being could inevitably do this. He/she could conduct the good on his/her own.

Also about society being sick. You must see this to be true. It has its merits but it is never going to be perfect. ( I know you already knew this).

What kind of society do you think we live in?

[avatar6v7]

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

You should start a thread on that. It'd be interesting.

And also, I don't believe that God's logic trumps mine. I am able to figure out the morals of the bible myself, not to mention surpass them. I mean, there are faults with the ten commandments.

And morals are relative(there's a failure to God's logica right there, without fixing it). It is going to put humanity in a horrible place to establish absolute morals, when the behaviour of humans constitutes relative, inconsistent values. I mean, what does God want of us humans then? For us to love him over our love of eachother?! I'm sorry, but when and if I have children, its them who comes first, not God, who I can't find a reason to employ in my beliefs and understandings when it doesn't even convey itself in our realities.

It is the now that matters, fellow mankind. I can do good, and use critical thought to denounce all of God's logic to be what is right absolutely. Critical thought, if fundamentalists can't accept it's applicable then why do we have it? To make us sin?! What kind of twisted game is this!

If God is the ultimate truth, then would you employ it into the court of law? Searching away for a quote that is open to thousands of interpretations (so God didn't really convey its absoluteness very well, to be put in the context of human writing.. in fact, human form is itself naturally relative, through variation) An invariant system is therefore insane.

If God wanted absoluteness it should've made us clones.
And in the court of law if we were to just abide by the ten commandments I'm sure there'd be plenty of situations in which paradoxes would arise. Absoluteness does not itself imply paradoxical situations... it can't logically. Logic is what humans use.

And about miracles. Explain to me why you think they exist. Can you not accept the empirical evidence that probability is the influence on why some patients die in surgery and some don't. Prayer has nothing to do with it. It is enough proof to see that its probability.

For example, I'm sure that if we had a bunch of patients who prayed for help before surgery, vs. those who didn't... the probability for survival would inevitably be the same. I'd love to test this. Besides, surviving the surgery against the odds is an act of human potential. If a surgeon can do this, good for him/her. If the odds are like 1 out of a million then I'd call this a divine acheivement. Its not that God was playing any role, its simply that the probability was there that a human being could inevitably do this. He/she could conduct the good on his/her own.

Also about society being sick. You must see this to be true. It has its merits but it is never going to be perfect. ( I know you already knew this).

What kind of society do you think we live in?

I will start a thread on it sometime soon, promise
as for rational interpetation of the bible fine. but can you actually name me two dilemnas where the same moral structure cannot be applied? Interested to see the response on that one. Btw when I mean there is an absolute right, I mean there is an ultimate justice that we are attempting to work towards- not that we should blindly follow some words.
As for miracles, since I wasn't positing them as a proof or argument for god's existance we don't really need to discuss them but if you're intrested I'll play ball. For a start I bet you that the people who prayed will survive more, for the simple reason that they will have greater belief in their own chances, greater hope that they will survive because of it. I think that hope comes from God to strengthen us, but you could just as easily call it the placebo effect.
Secondly I believe miracles such as visions of god, the saints or the virgin mary occur to people- these are of course debatable and you could argue they were just dreams or hallucinations. I think that sometimes God intervenes without explanation and seemingly without reason- incredible things will be shown or occur and completly inexplicably. I know the argument- why should miracles only happen to some? The only answer I can give is that they would not be miracles if they did. They exist not simply to do whatever good it is they do to the person, but to give us hope. It's very nature is such that it cannot be put forward, especialy to a sceptic, as a justification of faith. Which is why I didn't.
There are problems in every society and there is no need to take a defeatist attitude- we can fix a whole bunch of them.

[Holiday20310401]

Originally Posted by avatar6v7

There are problems in every society and there is no need to take a defeatist attitude- we can fix a whole bunch of them.

I completely agree. And as for two dilemmas. Firstly, some comedy.

YouTube - George Carlin - Ten Commandments

1. You shalt not murder. What is you are confronted by a psychopath who is about to murder you and has murdered before?
2. You shall not lie. Sometimes lying can be a good thing.
3. And also, I am the lord your God. Well... He's not my God.